University Series 002 | Michigan State University

Join Operant Innovations as they speak with Michigan State University's Dr. Matt Brodhead and doctoral student Emma Sipila.

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Dr. Matt Brodhead -
Emma Sipila -

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MSU ABA Program -



Shauna Costello (00:01):

You're listening to operant innovations, a podcast by ABA technologies. Last week, we kicked off our university series and this week. We're continuing our trip through Michigan. By visiting Michigan state university. You may have heard of them because of their sports teams, but you may not have known about their newly established behavior analysis program. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Matt Brodhead an assistant professor at MSU and the research director of MSU early learning Institute. Dr. Brodhead has published 31 peer reviewed research articles on autism and behavior analysis recently publishing the book practical ethics for effective treatment of autism spectrum disorders. Along with Dr. Brodhead, I had the pleasure of speaking with a doctoral student, Emma Sipila to get the student perspective, but less from me and more from them. Let's jump into the interview. We are here with Matt Brodhead assistant professor in behavior analysis and Emma Sipila, a doc student at Michigan state university. Thank you guys. And welcome.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (01:02):

Thanks for having us start off.

Shauna Costello (01:04):

Just telling us a little bit about MSU program

Dr. Matt Brodhead (01:08):

MSUs program, we have a masters in applied behavior analysis program that is in the department of counseling, educational psychology, and special education, which is in the college of education at Michigan state university. So it is a two year program and it is on campus. Um, half the classes are online, but half of them are face to face and all of our students are placed at one of two practicum sites. So, uh, one practicum site is called the early learning Institute, which is a community based autism treatment program for individuals with autism. And the other placement is a Spartan project search, which is a, uh, vocational transition program for young adults with autism or intellectual disabilities. So, um, it's a two year program and all of our students complete research thesis along the way, which I'm really excited to be able to share more detail about that as well. Um, and something that we're very excited to have here at Michigan state. And it has been in operation since 2016.

Shauna Costello (02:11):

And since you brought up research, um, what kind of research are you guys getting involved in?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (02:17):

So, yeah, the research, uh, takes place, I guess, at multiple levels. And, and, um, just to kind of share a little bit about my stuff and some of the other faculty and then Emma's as well, we are, being a research institution, research is really the driving force behind everything that we do. All of the faculty here are very heavily engaged in research, and it is at the core of Michigan state university's mission. So as being one of the things that's special about Michigan state is that we're a land grant institution. So we exist for the purpose to benefit the people of Michigan and the United States and beyond. So we try to do research that, we believe, at least, uh, makes, um, substantial improvements to the community. So one of those big research efforts, and, you know, as I mentioned is the early learning Institute in and of itself where we are researching a method of community based autism service delivery that works in a variety of settings and can be conducted and, and carried out with, um, the wide range of, um, individuals from different cultural or economic backgrounds in order to demonstrate how this, this research model should meet this community based autism treatment model might be integrated into, um, other aspects of, uh, there are other types of communities or other, other areas as well. And so then we also have a lot of other kind of projects related, related to that, that I know that Emma, Emma has been very heavily involved with as well.

Emma Sipila (03:52):

Yeah. So some of the research that we've focused on, we've worked on, um, preference assessments and looking at the interaction between edible and leisure items, um, as well as preference assessments, looking at social interactions. And then we've also, um, worked on some manualized interventions focusing on social play skills.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (04:10):

I, and I think too, um, you know, Emma's talking about her own interests, but when, when you, um, you look at some of the other faculty, Marissa Fisher who's, um, uh, on our faculty, her research is in vulnerability bullying, um, uh, individuals with Williams syndrome and intellectual disabilities. And, you know, that in and of itself is very groundbreaking, innovative work. And so we'd like to think of what we're doing here as being special and unique. I mean, it is all behavioral analytic, but it's, it's, um, trying to push the envelope, I think, uh, with the things that we do to affect policy, um, and how decisions are made at the larger level, um, the government level or agency level of, of how autism intervention or, or, um, disability, um, supports are, um, carried out, and implemented.

Shauna Costello (05:11):

And have you been, I know that from my experience in Michigan, have you guys been able to expand that and get to some of, even like the local or regional or state level of government?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (05:27):

So the, the early learning Institute, uh, at least at the beginning was, um, you know, supported by, uh, generous, um, grants that we were able to receive from the Michigan department of health and human services. So I wanna, I want to thank them for the financial support that they've provided for that. And then also, uh, for the development of our masters in ABA program as well. And so one of the things that's great about being a part of, or having been funded, um, through that mechanism and working with the, uh, the people at the state is that we're able to engage in conversation with them on a, at least a monthly basis, if not more. And there are multiple universities that are involved in this, and I think that they take autism treatment and service delivery very seriously. And I know that they, they really understand, um, what behavior analysis is.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (06:18):

I know that they have behavior analysts on staff at the Michigan department of health and human services. So I feel like we've been able to, um, make great strides and, and by we, you know, Michigan State has been a player in that, but, um, you know, other people in the state as well, I know the Stephanie Peterson and Jim Todd, and I know that there are others that are leaving out, your old colleagues at Western Michigan and Eastern Michigan have really been, um, you know, in the driver's seat of a lot of that change too. So lots of things have happened in the state over the last, you know, six, seven years that, that, uh, it really made some tremendous gains.

Shauna Costello (06:52):

I know that we kind of talked about Marissa Fisher, the other faculty, um, what are some of the other research interests more broadly that are going on with some of the faculty in the mixture between behavior analysis and the school of counseling and special education department.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (07:09):

So we also have a strong core faculty who study, uh, learning disabilities and, uh, reading and writing, and they are, um, very prolific in what they do and have an incredible skillset. Um, and it's great. Cause I think when you, when you look at our, um, special ed program, particular is about 10 or 11 of us, and we have the strong autism focus slash behavior analysis and the strong learning disability focus. Uh, it's really a really great, um, mixture of interests and broadly, um, in educational psych and school psychology and rehabilitation counseling. And there's also, um, quantitative in, um, a measurement component to that as well. There is such a broad range of skill, uh, both in terms of, um, you know, the types of work that people do or quality work that people do, but also the types of research designs that people employ, the types of areas that people are conducting research in.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (08:20):

It's great to interact with all of those people, cause they're doing completely different stuff and it really inspires our own work to be able to be innovative. So I don't, I don't think that we are at all sort of like insular, like, um, uh, you know, just sort of like closed internal feedback loop of, you know, our program of not of just doing the same thing over and over again. I think that we have this very like innovative culture due to the variety of different types of research interests that are going on in our department and in the college that really drive, um, drive what we do. And I think that, um, those differences are also helpful for the students in the classes as well.

Shauna Costello (09:01):

And that's something that is a little bit different about MSU's program is where the behavior analysis, you know, section of the school is housed. Sometimes we see them in their own schools of behavior analysis. Sometimes we see them and, you know, the health and human services, sometimes we see them and just under school of psychology. Um, so I'm hearing that because of where the program is housed at Michigan state, that it's very eclectic and well-rounded for students. And I know Emma, you said that, you know, you're a doc student, but just heard Matt say that there's only a master's behavior analysis program. So how would you say that that's kind of helped you grow from, you know, getting your master's and then coming to Michigan state for your PhD program?

Emma Sipila (09:53):

Right, so in the doctoral program, we do take a lot of special education courses. So that's different than what we were doing in the master's program. We're just focusing on behavior analysis. So that has really helped kind of just broaden, um, my knowledge and skillset, which then could help when discussing and talking with, um, master students within the behavior analysis program, kind of bringing in some of that information and knowledge that I've gained in those special education courses. Um, and so all of our research still is focused on behavior analytic, um, research and literature, but I'm kind of bringing in different aspects.

Shauna Costello (10:27):

And I know that, um, before we started talking, Matt, you kind of brought up where some of the other students have gone either from the master's program or after the PhD. So it kind of, where are some of the Michigan state students, you know, going from when they either they leave Michigan state? Where, where do you see them going?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (10:49):

Yeah. So great question. And what, and what I'll just do is, um, you know, discuss the last two cohorts, I guess, that have graduated from this program. So we've, we've finished two so far. Um, the first cohort that graduated back in 2018, uh, there was seven of those eight students went on to, um, they all had job offers, uh, prior to graduation. And most of them actually stayed in the state of Michigan because there's a lot of opportunity within the state for students, uh, to work in autism. Um, I know that one also went on to do some work for the global autism project and it's been traveling all over and it's, uh, really enjoying that experience. I know. And then we had another student who entered a PhD program at, um, a big 10 institution. And is it a very rigorous program that they were able to enter and is doing quite well there too?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (11:41):

So, you know, really what we aim to do is put them in a position where they'd be able to have the job or opportunity of their choice, whether that be a, you know, working in autism service delivery or going on to get a PhD. We, you know, we like to think that we're able to prepare them to be able to, um, accomplish that goal. And then I think another thing that's also worth mentioning, so our pass rates, aren't going to be on the BACB website because we're too new of a program for that. But, um, we have a 97% first time pass rate for our, um, for our students. You know, I think for our first group of students coming through is, is pretty good. We feel very proud of that. Um, you know, cause I know that there's, there's kind of some time that given the newer programs that sort of calibrate, um, you know, before that, that information is published. So we're very excited about that pass rate and um, I guess I should make the disclaimer for official data, please visit Uh, but, uh, we, um, you know, I like to think about that as an outcome measure too, because let's, you know, let's be honest. I know that that's something that's really important for students. Um, and they're looking at programs and, um, jobs are important in the PhD programs are important, but you know, a lot of that is contingent on passing the exam.

Shauna Costello (13:00):

And so what is the student experience here? Um, I've heard that it's very student focused and student centered and I know that, um, that you were great enough to bring in Emma to kind of accentuate that. So kind of what can, what are your, what have your experiences been in the program? And I would love to hear both of your opinions on the campus as a whole East Lansing as a whole, because I know that the culture here is, is very unique as well.

Emma Sipila (13:34):

So as Matt mentioned for the coursework, they do half online and then half on campus courses and then the practicum, they do, uh, roughly 10 to 20 hours of practicum, um, each week and then as well, um, what their research and their master's thesis that they're completing as they're here. Um, as far as like East Lansing and the campus goes, um, here there's, I mean, just being in Michigan is great. I might be somewhat biased because I've always lived in Michigan. Um, but having all different seasons and being able to experience all of that and then just being in that MSU community, um, just walking around campus, everyone's smiling and happy to be here and this are very friendly to each other. Um, and the students, since the cohorts are smaller, so everyone gets to kind of become like a close knit, kind of like a family cohort style, um, which is really great here. Um, and then specifically we also, um, under Dr. Brodhead, we have a lab that all of us doc students and masters students, um, are in. And so for that, we meet regularly and talk about research and practice doing presentations if we're going to, um, conferences and things of that nature.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (14:52):

Yeah. You know, I think, I think you captured the essence of it. And I think I like the, how you use the term family, because I think that that describes, you know, I think what it means to be a Spartan quite well. You know, we, Spartans are everywhere. They're all corners of the globe and you're, you're going to find someone wearing, wearing a Spartan hat or a Spartan shirt. And, and, um, so this vast alumni network and, uh, the alumni network of people who go on to do wonderful things, um, though we are a very large university, as Emma mentioned, our cohorts are quite small. Um, we had been admitted about eight or nine students every year into our program. And that means that each student is, you know, the advisee to student or ratio is about one advisee to two to three students.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (15:39):

So students have a lot of face time with faculty here. So though it's a large university, you're not lost in the hustle and bustle of all of it, it's you, I think the master's students have, um, time that is pretty comparable to what doctorals doctoral students would get with faculty too. So it is a great opportunity for mentorship. Um, it is a great opportunity to learn and you work on and hone research skills, so the thesis can be completed and carried out and published. Um, but also to, to, you know, come out a very competent behavior analyst, because that is something that, you know, we take very seriously and keeps me up at night is maintaining a high quality of, um, of instruction for our students. So we produce high quality practitioners or researchers, whatever people want to be, um, that ultimately proves the quality of care that's being provided or the quality of research is being conducted.

Shauna Costello (16:39):

What kind of conferences have you been sending your students to?

Emma Sipila (16:43):

Yeah, so we have gone to the Michigan autism conference. We have gone to the behavior analysis association of Michigan conference, um, and recently went to the, um, association of applied behavior applied behavior analysis, international conference. And so those three mainly are the ones that we've been focusing on.

Shauna Costello (17:01):

And I know that for this podcast specifically, um, if we haven't yet heard about the behavior analysis association at Michigan conference or BAAM or the Michigan autism conference, um, you will, um, one is held at Eastern Michigan university and the other one is held in Kalamazoo by Western Michigan university. Um, and I know from personal experience that those are great opportunities for students to get out there and practice and hone in on those presentation skills as well. What about the process to get into the program? Every interview process is a little bit different. So what is Michigan state's like?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (17:41):

Yeah. So I'll tell you about what we've done in the past. So our deadline for applications is last year was January 1st, I believe, um, January first or the 15th, I can't quite share. So check the website for updated information on that. And so then what we do is after we received the applications, we, um, do our initial screen. And then we do, um, video conference interviews with prospective students and sort of get a sense for their interests and make sure, you know, that sort of verifying from their application that their interests aligned with what, what is that we can provide to them because we want to make sure that we can get the student with what they need, um, or what they are looking for to be successful. And then following that, what we did last year is we actually, um, we had, uh, resources available to fly out our top applicants from all over the country.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (18:37):

So we have people coming in from as far away as California, um, to have, uh, engage in a day long process of just meet with faculty, meeting with students. Um, learning about the program, learning about the research that's being conducted by other master's students and doctoral students as well, and the, and the tour of the potential practicum placement sites. And so, you know, during that whole process that initial, you know, sort of come to, uh, decisions about, you know, what students might work best with which advisors and, and so forth, and hopefully have decisions sorted out maybe by mid March or towards the end of that. Um, try to try to get it done around mid March because, you know, we recognize that often students are applying to multiple types of programs and students are competitive, and we want to make sure that, you know, we are aggressive in our case to, to recruit top students as well.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (19:28):

So we, we, you know, we like to, we'd like to get the students in, and then I think, you know, graduate school was a two year it's a two year commitment, possibly more if people want to stick around for a PhD. And so we want to make sure that they're comfortable here as well. I'm gonna make sure that they're a good fit and it's kind of a two way street. It's not just, you know, I don't expect them to certainly conform to our values. You know, we have to kind of merge together and I'll make sure it's gonna be good for everyone

Shauna Costello (19:52):

Expanding off of that. We slightly talked about East Lansing and the seasons of Michigan. Um, I am also biased, uh, and I prefer Michigan as well. Um, but I know I've got to explore a little bit of East Lansing just from living in Michigan and going to football games and basketball games here. But what is the surrounding community like that the students are going to be living in? What can they expect?

Emma Sipila (20:20):

Yeah. So, um, when I was living here for the first year of the doctoral program, um, we actually lived in Lansing and, um, between Lansing and East Lansing, there's the Lansing river trails where you can do bike riding and also there's the red Cedar. So you can also do some kayaking and different things like that. So a lot of outdoor activities, um, and the bike trails can take you all the way to downtown Lansing or to downtown East Lansing where you can have dinner or whatever have you. Um, and then, yeah, that was a lot of the things that we would do is just a lot of outdoor activities. And then, but you're also close enough where if you like to visit other locations, you can still travel up North to Northern Michigan and visit some places there as well as we're not that far from Detroit area as well. Um, so if you have interest of exploring Michigan further, you're easily accessible, um, to anywhere. And then.

Shauna Costello (21:14):

About an hour and a half, I would say from Detroit will go in one way. And then if you're going to go West the other way, about an hour and a half to Grand Rapids,as well.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (21:25):

Yeah, it really is. It's a very central location here in the central part of Michigan, just a sort of echo, um, you know, Emma had said, so you have this, you know, the capital of the state is in Lansing. So you've got a lot of amenities and there's a lot that's going on here. But, um, you know, I grew up in Northern Michigan and I very much love winter sports and I maintain the seasons pass and up in Harbor Springs. And I can be there in less than three hours and that's something I continue to do. And actually I was just up there this weekend, hanging out in a boat, being out on the water and enjoying the summer, you know, here we are back, um, back at it, you know, during the work week, but it's, um, you know, I had lived in Utah for four years getting my PhD and we loved it out there, but we really missed the water. We really miss the lakes and we really missed the community and just the sort of easygoing, um, nature of, of the Midwest in general and the kindness of mid-westerners in general. And so my wife and I were, you know, have always been trying to get back to Michigan. And we were very excited that we had the opportunity to do that. Cause this really feel like this is a special place.

Shauna Costello (22:40):

It is. And I know that the winters might scare some people. Um, but how are the winters in East Lansing? I don't know if I've ever personally experienced a winter except driving through. I grew up on the West side of the state with all of the Lake effect, snow. And then I moved to the East side of the state where winter is almost nonexistent compared to what I grew up with. So how does it compare in East Lansing?

Emma Sipila (23:05):

I mean, here compared to on the West side of the state here is not, we don't have the Lake effect snow, so we still of course get snow and experience winter. But, um, I mean, as far as like driving in the winter conditions, it's not as hard as it may seem. Um, so I actually commute an hour, um, to come here and I, there was only one day where I had all last winter where there was any issues of trying to, I mean, I still was able to get here. It just took me a little bit longer, but otherwise always could get here very easily. And they, as far as the driving conditions, aren't as terrible.

Shauna Costello (23:38):

And Matt, how does it compare to maybe some of the other areas in the country, like Utah that you've lived in.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (23:46):

Yeah, it's, you know, um, I guess the gosh, I'm trying to think it's all been so very dynamic. And I remember living in Indiana where there was no weather, it wasn't a winter. And I was just sort of like, you know, crossing my fingers for snow it's um, you know, I think that for people who come from warmer areas or who aren't from the state, the really the key is just kind of being prepared for it and dressing appropriately for the weather and in driving appropriately for the weather, for the weather. So, you know, wherever you go, you kind of have to adjust and adapt. And we have students, you know, again, come from all over the place and study here and they all do quite well. We've had a new, we had a student from the Bay area who's in our master's program now. And I think when it snowed for the first time, some other members of her cohort from Michigan, took her to a church parking lot and worked on breaking and, you know, starting up. And that's just what you do to learn how to drive in the snow. I think everyone in Michigan, who's learned how to drive the snow has done it in a large vacant parking lot. And so you're just going off of past experience to help. So you're smiling cause you know exactly what

Shauna Costello (24:57):

I know exactly what you're talking about. I do. Yes. And especially growing up in the Lake effect, snow, um, yes, the West of the state tends to get pelted with snow. Um, back to a little bit about the program. Um, it is newer, it's a few years old. Um, where do you see the program going in the future?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (25:16):

I think that that is a really great question. So what I think, um, you know, where I see the program going is to continue to sort of build a structure and framework to conduct meaningful autism and disability research. So I think over the past few years, what we have done is we've, we've demonstrated our ability to carry out or advise students on high quality masters thesis that have led to publications. And as we become more dialed in our own operations, I would expect that more and more of our research that students complete will be able to be published as well. And I think what I would also offer, you know, through that, through that process with being able to, you know, be on the cutting edge or edge of research, I think that, um, people will learn and see what it is that we have here at Michigan state as being something that is, um, you know, of a high quality and a remarkable and sort of student centered experience.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (26:25):

Um, I know that there's lots of great quality programs in the state and we're fortunate to be amongst, um, you know, some giants, so to speak. And we take our role as a newer program, you know, very seriously and I would want nothing, but to be, um, um, you know, right up with, um, all of those other programs as well. So I think that over the years, the, the, the, the output and the quality that, that of students that we provide, I think will, um, will demonstrate, um, what it is that we really have to offer. And I would encourage students to look into that further, um, to be able to see for themselves, um, the sort of unique and special experience we all we have here.

Shauna Costello (27:06):

What else have I not asked that you want to make sure people know about Michigan state?

Dr. Matt Brodhead (27:13):

I want to, you know, one thing I want to note is that though we are in the college of education, um, you know, our, our program is a master's in applied behavior analysis. So we are very, um, intentional about making sure that our students get a strong behavioral analytic concepts of principles, philosophical underpinnings background. I mean, all of that's obviously required by the task list and in, in, in a training and so forth. But, um, I think that that is, is critical to whatever, um, opportunities or jobs that students pursue at the same time. We also have a very heavy emphasis on making sure that students are prepared for practice or for, you know, a research intensive doctoral program if they so choose. So we've had a lot of really great feedback so far from the, um, the employers who are hiring our students about how well trained they are and how, um, in particular their ability, um, to engage in, um, parent trainings to interact with parents has, has truly been something that's been some remarkable feedback. Their collaborative skills have been. Um, we've got a lot of great feedback on those as well, along with, you know, the behavior analytics skills and so forth. So I think that part of being in the college of education, not that maybe psychology programs don't lend to this, but I think that we have a very, an opportunity for it for heavy emphasis on those components that have served our students well.

Emma Sipila (28:51):

Yeah. And another thing I would like to add is kind of, um, Matt mentioned earlier was that the master students receive a lot of one on one time with the faculty. Um, so that here it's very, very supportive environment and you do have a lot of, um, opportunities to get feedback in various areas. Or if you may think that one area might need some improvement and you have a lot of opportunities for people to, um, provide you with the skills necessary to make those improvements or continue. So I think the support here is just really one of the things that I admire, um, and that I can just walk up to anyone, ask a question and they're able to help me, or if they don't might don't, they might not know the answer someone else will, and they'll direct you to that person. Um, so I think here it's just phenomenal feel comfortable walking up to anyone and just having conversation and just gaining additional knowledge. And the faculty here are just very, um, knowledgeable, and helpful. And so, yeah.

Shauna Costello (29:45):

An`d I think the collaborative nature that you guys bring up is something to emphasize as well. Um, I know that from my previous experience, supervising students, um, you know, master's students or even undergrad students in schools could, it can be a difficult feat, uh, teaching some of those collaborative skills with fields that don't necessarily, you know, have a background in behavior analysis. And so I think along with the collaborative skills that, you know, MSU is teaching their students, I think it's also a good emphasis on the dissemination of behavior analysis and being able to show that behavior analysis can and does work in other fields and how it can work as well.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (30:39):

Yeah. And I think, you know, just to kind of just emphasize that all of the core faculty in our behavior analysis program, you know, are very competent, very skilled, you know, incredible behavior analysts. We all got our PhDs from colleges of education. Um, you know, Josh Plavnick got his PhD here, Russell Fisher got a PhD from Vanderbilt. Um, Tiffany, she got her PhD here and I got my PhD from Utah state university from the college of education so that we all have these behavior analysis backgrounds. We also have that, that, that mix, um, of education and the sort of collaborative, um, let's all work as a group together. Um, so we can work with one another instead of against one another, um, focus, um, not only with, you know, training our students, but also we take that same energy in, in viewpoint and we apply it to the work that we do here.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (31:31):

So, you know, you take a look at, um, you know, sort of output of the research that the faculty are doing. And, you know, it's one thing for faculty to talk about being collaborative, but I think where it really shows is when they're publishing together and they're working on the same grants and, and that's the kind of stuff that you see here with us. And so, um, you know, that's something that, you know, we try to, you know, um, we don't, we talk that, that, um, that message up, but we also try to walk it to on many fronts.

Shauna Costello (32:03):

And, um, I know that I've seen your work and the students' work out there showing that same type of collaboration and dissemination between fields. And I think that that's going to be key for, you know, the field of behavior analysis in general and you know, the upcoming years.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (32:22):

Yeah, absolutely. I just, I want to just say that if students have any questions, I invite them to email myself Um, then Emma can, uh, give her information, but, um, you know, check us out online and we are very happy to, um, discuss any questions that students have and want to make sure that, um, you know, we can be as available to them as possible when they are looking around, to help them make the decision about graduate school that's best for them.

Emma Sipila (32:54):

And then if any questions about the student perspective or would like to talk to additional students, uh, you can email me at and I'd be more than happy to help.

Shauna Costello (33:06):

Um, I will make sure that those emails are available in the description as well. Um, but thank you both for talking with me today and taking some time out of your, your summer, your summer break now, um, to discuss MSU's program and where it's going and what it's been doing. And I think there's going to be some pretty big things coming out of the Capitol, just East of the capital of Michigan. So thank you.

Dr. Matt Brodhead (33:35):

Okay. Thank you.

Emma Sipila (33:35):

Thank you.

Shauna Costello (33:43):

Thank you for listening to the university series on operant innovations stay tuned for more interviews coming from universities across the country, but do you have any more suggestions because we would love to hear them. Please contact us at


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