Public Statements with Jackie Noto and Dr. Mary Lewis

Maddie Duke (00:05):
Welcome back to another episode of the Boost U podcast. I am so excited today. I have previously had Dr. Mary Lewis on the podcast today, but today we are also joined by Jackie Noto. You are not a doctor yet, correct?
Jackie Noto (00:22):
That is correct. I'm currently wrapping up my PhD at this time.
Maddie Duke (00:26):
How exciting. I am so excited for you to finish up your PhD and have that off your plate, but I'm also so excited to have you both here today to chat about public statements. So could you guys both take a second and just introduce yourselves quickly to my audience?
Jackie Noto (00:47):
Absolutely. I'll go ahead and go first. So a general introduction for both Mary and I where you may have heard our voices before on your phones is Mary and I are co-hosts of the BehaviorSelf Podcast, where we essentially use storytelling to disseminate behavior analysis and behavior analytic principles. For myself personally, hi everyone. My name is Jackie Noto. I'm a dual M.S BCBA. I am an instructor for an online graduate program in behavior analysis and I also do consulting work, specifically looking at teaching schools how to respond in school safety emergencies or scenarios. This stemmed from one of my lines of research, my master's thesis, which was teaching individuals how to respond in active shooter scenarios utilizing behavioral skills training. So that's one scope of my work. I also do work in diversity, equity, inclusion, and allyship. Actually, Maddie and I are working on a couple pieces together at this moment. Uh, and then a scope that Mary and I share is we are both advocates for mitigating burnout across the various levels that it does occur. So that's just a quick, quick rundown on who I am as a person.
Maddie Duke (02:03):
Thank you.
Jackie Noto (02:04):
Or as a professional.
Maddie Duke (02:06):
You're much more multifaceted.
Jackie Noto (02:09):
Thank you.
Maddie Duke (02:11):
<laugh>. Hello, I'm Dr. Mary Lewis. As Jackie said, we do a podcast together where we love to yap about scientific research. It's super, super fun. I am an OBM-er in healthcare, so I do consulting in healthcare settings. I am an instructor alongside Jackie, and it's really, really fun to be able to educate students and chat with them and make new connections. And then it's also really fun to apply OBM skills in the real world because, let me tell you, it is different from a classroom or research paper.
Jackie Noto (02:48):
I have one more important thing that Mary and I both need to say.
Maddie Duke (02:51):
Oh gosh.
Jackie Noto (02:53):
Mary and I are both dog moms. I feel like that's an important part of our brand. I have a rescue dog. His name's Hercules. He is a Pitbull, Great Dane mix, about 65 pounds.
Maddie Duke (03:07):
And I have a black lab. Her name is Susie Q, but I call her Suze. She turned seven this January and a Corgi named Olive. They're also not my only, like, I'm not the sole owner. My husband also owns like, we're together, but you know, since we're here, you and me.
Maddie Duke (03:24):
I love this. I love that you had just you had to include the dog part.
Maddie Duke (03:32):
We kind of have to include behavior pups, you know? Yeah. Like it's it's pretty integral to, you know, our SEO.
Maddie Duke (03:38):
Yes, for sure. The behavior pups sounds like an Instagram bio. Do they have Instagrams?
Maddie Duke (03:46):
They both have Instagrams. They're different. Oh, we can send them to you.
Maddie Duke (03:50):
I will have all of your information linked down below. So I will have BehaviorSelf Podcast. I'll have your Instagram. Jackie, do you have a public Instagram or is it just private?
Jackie Noto (04:04):
So I just recently, this year actually is one of my new goals, created a separate professional Instagram. Because my personal Instagram is public and I started noticing that people were trying to get to me professionally through my Instagram, and I was like, I don't think you need to see photos of me at the Renaissance Fair. So I've made a separate one just for consulting, and I'll send that your way.
Maddie Duke (04:29):
Thank you. I think I have all of the BehaviorSelf Pod and, the ABA OBM-er stuff from our last episode, Mary. But, Jackie, if you could send that to me, that would be great.
Jackie Noto (04:42):
Absolutely.
Maddie Duke (04:43):
So like I mentioned, our topic for today is public statements, and this is a topic that I'm like weirdly passionate about. When I was writing test questions, I loved writing public statement questions. And I really wanted to have Mary and Jackie here to talk with me because they both make public statements aside from being professors. So with the podcast and with your Instagrams, I think this is a really interesting thing that you guys can speak to. So I'm really excited to hear your thoughts.
Jackie Noto (05:21):
We're excited to be here, and honestly, I kind of like that this is something that you're focusing on. I don't know about the two of you, but I feel like when I was preparing for my FPE, for my board exam, the public statements wasn't ever a thing I heard anyone really speak about or provide resources or tools to learn more about or to understand better. So I think this is really great idea.
Maddie Duke (05:43):
Oh, good. Thank you. I think it's really important, my listeners probably know and are probably annoyed with me by now. I think it's really important to always start with the definition. So I believe this definition comes from the ethics code. It is the BACB definition, and I'm just gonna read it. So a public statement is delivery of information in a public forum for the purpose of either better informing that audience or providing a call to action. So this can be digital or not digital. This can be paid, not paid brochures, printed materials, directory listings, even your resume, is considered a public statement. Comments that you make...like public statements covers a lot of ground.
Jackie Noto (06:36):
I like to stay up on the know, on like current debates in behavior analysis. And I think that a podcast like this is gonna be helpful because with the increase of availability in use of social media, within those of behavior analysis, we have seen some ethical issues regarding public statement usage in social media sectors. And this isn't my subjective opinion, like this is... We have objectively seen this take place, not in one facet, but in multiple instances. So I think it's good for us to talk about, not just for the test, but in understanding that social media is becoming a part of OBM. And individuals, professionals and companies need to be seeing the way that their social media impacts their rapport, their buy-in, in their relationships.
Maddie Duke (07:26):
Yes, absolutely.
Maddie Duke (07:30):
It's definitely very intimidating. Even just reading the definition, I don't view myself as making public statements when I post, but that is exactly what I'm doing. And with the ABA OBM-er account, and honestly with our podcast, that was definitely a hesitation because like, we're humans, we're not perfect, but we also want to, you know... We have a responsibility to deliver and disseminate accurate content, but also content that is going to add value to any consumer and not, and try our best not to cause any harm or mitigate that harm. And so when it comes to posting about research, I was very nervous. I literally just... I make a cute image and a song, like it's all supposed to be an enriching aesthetic experience of being up to date on what research is coming out, but it's just a screenshot of the abstract.
Maddie Duke (08:19):
I'm still kind of terrified to... I'm like, can I explain this? Am I giving the authors credit? Like, it's definitely a daunting task. And so I think navigating it and talking about examples, I think people might be like, "Oh, I didn't realize I was making a public statement, but I am". And that gives us autonomy and that gives us and I think that can be beneficial. You know, that can kind of boost your ego, like, "Wow, this is cool. I can make a difference". Like I'm adding value by sharing. But it's also a good reminder because I don't think we think about it that way. At least I don't. I don't normally think it about, I normally don't think about it that way, but after this podcast, I will.
Maddie Duke (08:56):
Yes. Yes.
Jackie Noto (08:59):
Whereas on my end, I think about this often, which is why you all won't hear it. But before this episode, I was like, "So Maddie, are we gonna be able to hear this audio before it goes out?" Because that's something that Mary and I do on our podcast is like we both re-listen to the episode before we post it to ensure that we feel comfortable with whatever we have said being out in that public sector. Something that I think I have prior history on with doing work in diversity, equity and inclusion is knowing that certain things are going to result in backlash and being prepared for that. So I think one of the things Mary and I work to do in our public speaking is try to still stay true to the points that we're trying to make. Still present that research, but also to be prepared that, you know, not everyone is going to like what you are sharing as accurate as it can be. That doesn't mean that people are going to agree with that. So it's one of the things that we keep an eye out with our public speaking that we wanna ensure that the stuff we're putting out is stuff that we wouldn't just say as people, but it aligns with our professional values as well.
Maddie Duke (10:05):
I'm so glad that you brought up your professional values because as you were speaking, I was thinking about the importance of identifying your values or having your values identified before you make public statements so that you can ensure that those statements are in alignment, both with our values as a profession, but also with your personal values.
Maddie Duke (10:27):
I would also say, just to add on the professional values, that if you are unsure of your professional values, number one, you should learn about Acceptance and Commitment Training. It's incredible...ACT. They talk about values, declaration statements, and personal and professional values. But I do think that you can disseminate valuable information and share your experience as a behavior analyst without having to claim a certain value or a certain opinion. And you can share research. So you can do it in a small way, like if you're unsure or if your... Our opinions change, our thoughts change, we learn more. We evolve and we grow. So that can be a way that you can still be contributing and disseminating and making your own version of a public statement without it feeling so daunting.
Maddie Duke (11:13):
Well, I think we can also think about the history of our field as a whole. And our field does not necessarily come from the most respectful, compassionate place. But I think, at least all the three of us, and hopefully our audience as well does not share those values that we were initially founded on. So if our field can change their values, their thoughts and opinions, so can we as humans.
Jackie Noto (11:46):
And that's one of the things that Mary and I have talked about multiple times before, is being a critic of behavior analysis. It doesn't mean that you hate behavior analysis. I believe Dr. Kristen Peterson, ABA in the Wild, is the person who, or at least the first person I saw, use the term 'critical friends'. And I think that's a really good way to view what we do often, is it's okay to have a critique of something when your goal is to improve what's happening. When your goal is to call to light something that needs to change. And that's something with public speaking to take into account as well. Like there's a difference between making a mistake and making an ethical violation. You know, like you might have said, maybe you forgot to include one author when you were listing them out. That's just a mistake.
Jackie Noto (12:37):
And someone's gonna give you feedback on that. And that's okay. You implement that feedback, you learn from it, you make sure that you have, everyone's name spelled right and everyone included next time. But issues that we've seen regarding public statements historically have been like providing way too much information about a client in a Facebook group. That is a completely different sector than like, "Oh, I thought this article said one thing. My bad guys, I'm gonna restate it." Or, "I don't know all the information on this, but this is my opinion". And then someone gives you more information, you restate it. I view that very differently as like our basic ethic codes you are not abiding by. Which is a problem we've seen in public speaking historically within our field.
Maddie Duke (13:17):
Now that we've talked about public statements, I think it goes kind of two ways. As the consumer and as the publisher. As the consumer, I think it's really, really important that you remember the impact of when people are posting and not necessarily like accepting everything, all the statements that people are making, you know, kind of doing your due diligence, almost like media literacy. Like not just like accepting everything that someone who uses the, the phrase OBM says, but kind of digging deeper, I think is equally important as like us making appropriate public statements.
Maddie Duke (13:53):
Yes. It makes me think of, um, I post these little videos on Fridays where I just break down a behavioral principle. And I have a lot of fun with them, but there, there is a lot of thought that goes into it and like, especially because they're like 30 second videos. So like, how do I do my due diligence in 30 seconds? And like even one that I just scripted is about dependent group contingencies, which are also known as hero contingencies. And, I had a whole debate on do I need to give the technical term or can I just use the kind of colloquial term? Um, and like even things like this that are like, like these things matter and it's not just like a, a silly little thing. Like you have to think about these things.
Jackie Noto (14:45):
Yeah. And that works out kind of nicely for us because on BehaviorSelf Pod one of our missions was to present behavior analytic information in more of a storytelling format to disseminate beyond. So that gives us a nice little safety net for the specific jargonistic definition versus the casual one because we advocated from the start, this is your casual podcast, come here to yap to gab about behavior analysis. We're not here for like the step-by-step article review, but one of the reasons why Mary and I can do that is because we've made it clear that that's what our podcast is. We've said it. If you're looking to have a review of an article, if you're looking to get a CEU, this is not the podcast you should be listening to. So I think part of that too is just being like transparent with your audience about what you're posting. If you're posting something that is an opinion in nature, that should be clear that this is subjective versus objective. And I think by just covering your butt a little more, when you do engage in public speaking, it can help to set both you and your audience up for success on those expectations.
Maddie Duke (15:52):
Yes. And even if you can kind of like say something happens, can you document -- instead of deleting all of your old notes -- can you document that? You know, I thought about this and going back to my example, I thought about using the term dependent group contingency and I can prove that. And if anything needed to go to the board for some crazy reason or anything like that, documentation is also important.
Jackie Noto (16:29):
Documentation is bread and butter in this field.
Maddie Duke (16:32):
Yes, a hundred percent. Um, I should do a podcast on documentation because I did not learn about that in school, at all.
Jackie Noto (16:43):
I did through, contingency-shaped behavior. But we could talk about that in another time if you'd like.
Maddie Duke (16:49):
For sure.So let's go into, we've kind of been giving some examples, but what are some examples and non-examples of public statements? Like it what is, what it isn't?
Maddie Duke (17:04):
I'd love to start with a non-example 'cause it's what I'm thinking of: having positive gossip with your friends. And it's not recorded and it's not being posted anywhere and you're sharing really cool, amazing things about our field and about people in our field. Non-example of a public statement, it's not going anywhere. And it's positive. Gotta love that.
Maddie Duke (17:25):
Yes, exactly. So that, that would not be a public statement. And just to bring that back to the definition, and I'll probably post the definition in the description of this podcast. That doesn't meet any... It's not an interview, it's not, it doesn't meet any of these definitions.
Jackie Noto (17:50):
For an example of public speaking, you're presenting at a conference. You're disseminating information in a public sector to, looking back to your definition here, to better inform that audience. So that would obviously be an example of a public statement. I mean, I don't think you could have a more crystal clear example of a public statement than standing on a stage in front of a podium speaking to a group of people.
Maddie Duke (18:15):
Yes. But even like things like speaking in like a group meeting, especially if it's an interdisciplinary, like you're working at a school and it's a team meeting. Anything that you say to kind of educate on behavior analysis or the services that you're providing, that could be considered a public statement as well. And I think that's an important kind of distinction.
Jackie Noto (18:41):
And I would argue as well, something that I don't think a lot of newer technicians think about, but like the emails you're sending about your client, the session notes you're writing about your client, while in that moment you feel that they are private because it's between you and their family, or between you and the other technicians, or going through Central Reach (TM) into the insurance. None of those are private. If anything were to happen with your client where something had to go to a court of law, all of that is getting pulled up and is getting read out loud. So whatever you're writing in email, whatever you're writing in session notes, you need to be writing that in a way that you would feel comfortable with that being read out loud in a court of law. Because that would be a public statement.
Maddie Duke (19:27):
Yes. That's a really great point. A hundred percent. And I'm just seeing that I had put on here that, and we did not do this.This is our disclaimer, that we are not affiliated with the BACB. All of this is our interpretation of their documents. Um, so we believe that we are correct, but we may be incorrect. And also the BACB can change things at any point in time.
Jackie Noto (19:58):
And these disclaimers are a big part of public speaking. Mary and I do disclaimers a lot of like either, we're not sure if this is a hundred percent. Please feel free to fact check on this. We'd love to hear your response. But also, you know, if you have a multiple relationship, like, last week we recorded an episode on conferences and I have a multiple relationship with two of the conferences that we talked about. So before I started recommending this conference, I opened with, I need all of you to know that I do have a multiple relationship with this. This is the role I hold in this other organization. So this is going to be bias coming from me. It's just checking your boxes and ensuring that whatever you're putting out is transparent. We're not trying to manipulate you, we're not trying to push you in one direction versus the other. We wanna be open with you about what's taking place. So those disclaimers, I feel are a really big part of being able to have these conversations and have discussion on these topics without being so worried about any minuscule thing that you could be saying wrong.
Maddie Duke (21:04):
Yes. I love that perspective of like taking the time to make a disclaimer and then being able to still be mindful of what you're saying, but not having to second guess every single word that comes out of your mouth. You should be mindful, but it will be fine if you've made proper disclaimers. Okay. So the, you know, the whole point of this podcast is to help you study for the exam. So, we have also given examples of why RBTs and non-BCBAs also need to be mindful of the statements they're making. But when it really comes down to it, I totally understand if you're like "Maddie, Jackie, Mary, like just get to the point I just wanna study for my exam". So what are the requirements? So there is a requirement to identify and comply with making public statements. So you do need to know these definitions, you do need to know examples, non-examples, and be able to identify them in an exam. Do either of you have any thoughts on that?
Jackie Noto (22:26):
My first quick easy one, just because we have seen this happen before with social statements. As I said previously, just because you have a side podcast or a side Instagram or you're posting it on your LinkedIn doesn't mean you can gab like you -- I mean, not even like you should with friends. There's just been a pattern historically where when people see an interface to talk about their difficulties in their job or their difficulties they're facing as a BCBA. Which, we understand this. Burnout is huge in our field, but when you're reaching out for help, including too much information about your client, whether that be in the clinic, a specific child, whether that be a company. We need to ensure that we are protecting the rights of the people that we are working with. And I feel like that is the main issue I've seen in public speaking. But I think with like these public statements, we need to ensure that we have these expectations set and that we maintain them. We don't just say this is the expectation, we follow through on that.
Maddie Duke (23:32):
Absolutely.
Mary Lewis (23:34):
When in doubt de-identify.
Maddie Duke (23:37):
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Jackie Noto (23:42):
The other thing I think about here actually goes back to something Mary said earlier of like people posting things but it not having support. And I think that's another big thing to discuss when it comes to public speaking because even Mary and I, in like our casual dissemination storytelling format, if we talk about a specific article that citation is going to be in the notes section of our slide. If I'm pulling a definition from a specific article, that citation is going to be on the Instagram post. And ensuring that you are appropriately crediting the sources that you are using in public speaking is crucial because not only will that display that what you're saying aligns with it, but if other people wanna learn more about this, they can. And I also think beyond this, that including those citations is going to help in reducing misinformation that goes out regarding behavior analysis regarding OBM. Because we've seen more and more people are identifying themselves as a behavior scientist as an OBM-er when they don't have the credentials or the training within that field. So continuing to back up what you're saying with sources, with cites is not only going to help you as a professional in maintaining your ethical adherence in furthering your own informational scope, your background, your experience, but it can help benefit the field in helping us to differentiate or discriminate between people who have the experience within this field and people who do not.
Maddie Duke (25:15):
Yes, absolutely. When in doubt cite, I think that's so important and you really can't control whether somebody does their own research. You can't control whether they're clicking that link, whether they're looking up that article. But at least you have covered all of your bases and you have done the work. We're behavior analysts, reducing that response effort by providing a link, by providing a citation is going to increase the likelihood that somebody else is going to do their own research. Even though we can't control that. So in talking about the requirements for making public statements, there is an entire section of our ethics code that talks about public statements. And I think this is why I kind of get a little bit weirdly excited about public statements 'cause I'm like, 'wow, this is a really big deal'. Like there are 11 codes just about this. So I feel like we don't really have time to like go through all of them, nor do I think that would be very interesting. So do you guys have any thoughts on any of these codes in particular?
Mary Lewis (26:43):
Yes. I need a little refresh. 5.06: Advertising Non-behavioral Services. What does that one say?
Maddie Duke (26:52):
Let me pull it up.
Mary Lewis (26:55):
I'm very curious. And then of course the Social Media Channels and Websites (5.10) and 5.11 (Using Digital Content and Public Statements). I'm glad it's making you excited because it's honestly stressing me out a little bit. But I need to channel my anxiety to excitement 'cause it is really cool that they have taken the time to give us all this structure
Mary Lewis (27:16):
And I'm gonna go back and like, analyze every single thing I've ever posted in my life about behavior analysis.
Maddie Duke (27:21):
Oh, don't do that. That would be so bad. Don't stress yourself out. Do some self care. So 5.06 says that behavior analysts do not advertise non-behavioral services as behavioral services.
Mary Lewis (27:37):
Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
Maddie Duke (27:39):
Yeah. Which, you know, I feel like is probably a little bit like common sense. But also if you, for example, are using essential oils in the room because your client's family really wants you to use essential oils, you're not going to, in any way, shape or form make anybody believe that that is happening because it's behavioral. You're going to make it very clear that that is because of a family preference or something like that.
Jackie Noto (28:14):
The part of the public statement section, which isn't something that Mary and I actually deal with at all, but has always given me stress is testimonials from clients. Now what I wanted to double check was, I knew you can't use your current clients, but I was like, I'm pretty sure you can use your former clients. So I wanted to double check. You can use former clients for advertising. Of course we have to be knowledgeable that they may reenter services and take that into account. But in general here, and this might be a hot take, I feel like using testimonials from clients at all is weird. Like whether they're a current client, whether they're a former client, a lot of those clients are still children. And that feels like a consent versus assent scenario where I feel like if you can consent, your testimony could be used. But if we're relying on the guardian's consent, I don't know, like it just makes me feel a little uncomfortable.
Jackie Noto (29:16):
And I get the benefit it can have for the company, for the organization, for the clinic. But in like the ABA side of things, it feels weird to me. And that's like not pro or con the ethics code. I think it's going to be a conversation that comes up again and again in the future as more and more the conversation of consent versus assent is brought into play. But the use of testimonials always felt strange to me.
Maddie Duke (29:49):
Yes. I am trying to pull up the -- I can't think of the word, which is making the search really difficult. The, not the handbook, but the BACB sent out a newsletter, where they talked about testimonials because there are so many OBM-ers who are not using clinical clients and they wanted to know about testimonials. And they gave us some more information about this
Mary Lewis (30:25):
To my knowledge. Like I don't have the data, but it seems as though we have a lot of OBM-ers that are opting out of receiving their BCBA. They are not getting their certification and they're, they have support and reasoning reasoning behind that. And, um, I think having A BCBA as an OBM-er is immensely helpful. However, I do know that there are a lot of people who opt out of that and so they don't have to adhere to this ethics code. And so I think that also kind of makes things, especially with the public posts, especially with the social media post, I think it makes things kind of tricky for consumers that are trying to receive accurate information about OBM.
Maddie Duke (31:04):
Yes. Now I don't know how to transition into this, newsletter, but I I think you make --
Mary Lewis (31:15):
Oh no, but in the newsletter... Does it say, does it give an answer for OBM-ers?
Maddie Duke (31:19):
So it does. Well kind of. So I just put it in the chat if you are interested in it, and it's like a whole page long, so don't read it right now. But essentially, if I'm remembering correctly, it can't be connected to service delivery. They find themselves in positions that still support the profession. Basically they say you can but do so cautiously and try to minimize any negative impact. But I still think it's like, it's really tricky for sure.
Mary Lewis (32:12):
My question, so if you're an OBM-er and you're doing consulting and you're working with companies, I'm gonna assume you gotta sign an NDA, so this probably doesn't apply to you. If you're an OBM-er doing like supervision and you post a testimonial. That kind of like makes me nervous, like, 'Hey, you wrote this review, can I post it?" I'm like, 'ugh'. But my question for you, Maddie, is what if there was data collected, de-identified data on ratings or keyword comments, like excellent, like high quality of services or something like that and that was posted. Would that kind of put you in like a really good spot in terms of the anxiety you might feel of posting a public statement? Because it is a testimonial, but it's de-identified and it's like based on data from multiple people that can't be exposed. And also the wording is a little bit more almost like a summary of 'this is the feedback we've been provided'.
Maddie Duke (33:12):
I think it still depends. I think, well first of all, first place my mind goes is, who's your audience? Because depending on who your audience is, they may or may not react and respond to data the way other behavior analysts would. So it may not be useful for you in the same way that someone's story would be. But that, I mean, that is irrelevant to the ethics code.
Mary Lewis (33:47):
No, no it is. No, it is. Because what if you made a fictional story, so you took the exact data in terms of like the words they used or the number of times they visited the page or the outcomes they experienced and you told a story because we know being a story storyteller, sharing research is engaging content, but it was completely fictional, and you disclaimed that.
Maddie Duke (34:09):
Yeah, I mean I think if you're using disclaimers and again, I am not the BACB and I am not your boss or your supervisor, I would say that is probably okay.
Jackie Noto (34:23):
So to me what it sounds like, Mary, is you're transitioning into like responsibility in research. If there's gonna be that data collection and that information. I would argue that having a fictional story to back up the data would not meet the goal of a testimonial. Like when you're doing a testimonial, you want people to see like, this is someone who's been here before, so you should come here too 'cause it works. So if you got informed consent to collect research on the individuals who are working with you right now and that you could post it with their information redacted, then yeah, I think that would be great. But I think that goes into like the tricky water of what is research and what is not research, and if you're working with a company, do you have their consent, blah, blah blah.
Maddie Duke (35:14):
Yeah. And I should have clarified, when I say data, I mean people are writing reviews and you're pulling direct quotes. So qualitative data is what I'm referencing.
Jackie Noto (35:24):
So then on this note, I wanna get back to my argument of consent versus ascent because I think if a full grown adult has positive feedback to give to you on the job that you did when you consulted for them, I feel like that should be fine. And in the ethics code, if we look at 5.08, you can use testimonials from your former clients for advertising, if you consider whether or not they're gonna reenter or resolicit your services, etc, etc. So I would argue, if it's an adult, I think that's fine. For me, like the gray area is when we're using children,
Maddie Duke (36:10):
I think there's still gray areas. And I'll give an example that I may also take out just because I'll need to get permission to share it. Um, but when this newsletter came out, it was sent to me because I work in marketing for ABA Technologies and we considered whether we could solicit testimonials from our customers, based on this guidance.
Jackie Noto (36:37):
And I think it's a great point to bring up regarding the ethics code. I think a lot of the times people think that the ethics code is in black and white, but in reality it's gray. And this is something I talk with my students about is there are relativistic approaches and there are absolutist approaches and what each of you listening, my audience here, thanks Maddie for letting us talk to your audience. But something I tell my students all the time is you need to review the ethics code. And I'm not saying this as your instructor, I'm saying this is you are going to be a professional in this field and you need to go through code by code and figure out which ones you have an absolutist adherence to which ones are in black and white, which ones there are no wiggle room for, versus which ones are a relativist adherence, which ones do the context come into play. So for some of these, taking the relativistic approach is what's realistic, but with this being said, you are ultimately the person who is going to be responsible for your own actions. So making sure that whether you're taking an absolutist or relativistic approach, that you feel that this is what aligns with the ethics code with your morals, with your values. Because ultimately you're gonna be the person held responsible for it.
Maddie Duke (37:53):
Yes. I think that's where it all kind of comes, comes down to is you have to be able to stand up for your decisions because if there's a question, you have to be the one to explain and be responsible. So, absolutely. Read the ethics code. It's not just a boring document that you should look at every once in a while. It's something that you should be very familiar with. So, we are just about out of time, but is there anything that you guys want to end with or leave the audience with?
Mary Lewis (38:32):
Um, Jackie always says something she wants to end with, so I'll let her think on that. Or she probably already has in her head, but I would like to say thank you Maddie, for having us on. I really enjoyed talking about this and you know, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take your advice, I'm going to refresh myself on some of these codes, especially some of these social media ones I'm very interested in. But in case you're a worrywart like myself, if you're an RBT or a BCBA and you're not advertising services and you don't have to worry about testimonials, just remember de-identify and don't publish anything about your clients. Like that's, that's the easiest way to go. And then it gets a little bit more nitty gritty with these codes. If you are providing services and you own a company, an organization, or selling a product and you wanna use testimonials, then you know, obviously you have to dig a little deeper.
Mary Lewis (39:19):
But hopefully that soothes you a little bit and cite whenever you can reference. Don't plagiarize, things like that. But also I think it's a really, a really cool way for us to be talking about this in the podcast format, Maddie. And the way that you have it structured, it feels very digestible. And I actually learned a little bit about some of these updates and I think discussing it like this, like I know the BACB can't provide exact examples and there's nothing more than I want than like a little video for each code that's like, here's an example of Mary doing a testimonial and blah blah blah... an example and a non-example. And I know they can't do that, but I really wish they could. And I feel like this is our way of like, trying to do that while still adhering to the code and while also disclaiming that we are not the code and we're not affiliated with them. And these are our thoughts and do your own research. Yay.
Jackie Noto (40:12):
I think my last thing, which might be a little bit of like a discussion that might come up in the field is also understanding that there's a difference between your personal accounts and your professional accounts. Right? Like Mary is gonna post different things to her personal Instagram than she is to her professional one. And it's okay for you to have a personal Instagram account where you post photos of you at the beach where you post photos of you at the Renaissance Fair. That's something that I struggled with as someone who was younger in the field in an academic role, um, feeling like I couldn't be a 20 something year old anymore, that I couldn't be that at all because of the role that I held. And that's not fair to us. Just because you work with children doesn't mean that you might not go to a Megan Thee Stallion concert on the weekend wearing a totally different outfit and you should be able to post about that on your personal page and that's your personal page.
Jackie Noto (41:12):
The blurry area comes when we are using our personal pages and talking about behavior analysis. Specifically, this is something I've seen on TikTok where people use their personal TikTok and then they're talking about like a hard time that they had at work and it's like, okay, well now you've blurred the line. Now you're talking about your profession, our field, on your personal one. But more so I've seen this when it comes to like classroom environments where people are posting tiktoks with children in them.Once again, you gotta be real cautious about everything you do just 'cause it's TikTok and you have some wonky username that you don't think people are gonna find you by. People are gonna find out. So knowing the differences of what is your personal versus what is your professional and then operating appropriately within the respective realm. You're in.
Maddie Duke (42:08):
Yes. And I love that.
Jackie Noto (42:09):
And I'm a huge advocate of like disseminate behavior analysis into your personal life. I'm a huge advocate for that. So I'm not saying you can't talk behavior analysis, but don't think just 'cause it's on your personal account that the ethics code doesn't apply to the stuff you're saying.
Maddie Duke (42:22):
And I also think that's not to say that you can't have a bad day and you are not allowed to talk about it when you've had a bad day. You just can't say I had a bad day because my 8-year-old client did this very specific thing.
Mary Lewis (42:39):
Yes. De-identify. And also since you said that, Maddie, I have to interject. Behavior analytic research shows that the number one, in our research only, there's a lot of other research out there. The number one recommended resource for mitigating burnout is social support. Chatting it up, yapping it up. So if you're doing it with public statements, de-identify everything, use caution, look at the code. If you're doing it with your pals, still de-identify everything and look at the code, but don't have as much stress.
Maddie Duke (43:11):
Do you have an article or that you could send me that talks about that so I can link it?
Mary Lewis (43:19):
I most certainly do. I would love to. Thank you.
Maddie Duke (43:21):
Yes, thank you. I think that is a perfect place to end on. So again, thank you guys so much for being here and chatting with me. I have had a lovely, enjoyable time and I hope that my audience has as well.
Jackie Noto (43:41):
Yes. Thank you so much for having us. We're looking forward to working with you in the future. I know I'm gonna be back on for another episode upcoming, and I love this format. We're all pro dissemination of behavior analytic content in an easy to comprehend format. So I think this is a beautiful thing that you're doing not just for your job role, not just for the field in general, but for individual students. You're providing them with a supplemental resource that they haven't historically had. And I think that's a beautiful thing.
Maddie Duke (44:10):
Thank you. Thank you. We're just gonna end with that. Thank you so much!