AC4P With Dr. Scott Geller 001 | The COVID Mask & Actively Caring for People

Shauna Costello (00:00):

You're listening to operant innovations, a podcast brought to you by ABA technologies, and we're excited to partner with Dr. Scott Geller and bring you the actively caring for people podcast series. Where better to start but with current events, today dr. Geller will be answering questions revolving around mask-wearing and how wearing a mask is actively caring for people. But you might still be wondering what and where actively caring for people came from. Dr. Geller will explain that too. So without further ado, dr. Scott Geller. All right, today, we're here with dr. Scott Geller, who has recently published a couple articles and one is called the COVID-19 face mask, more a healthy than a selfie, and also preventing injuries versus COVID-19 a critical distinction. And he's going to answer some more, just some questions about mask wearing in general. So welcome dr. Geller. I appreciate you answering some questions.

Dr. Scott Geller (01:10):

Thank you, Shauna. It's good to be here.

Shauna Costello (01:13):

So I'm going to ask, just to start off with, um, in the articles, which are, which are short articles for anybody who is interested, um, very good, concise articles, but in them you kind of talk about the current mask wearing situation. And so I just wanted to get your opinion and overview on what that current mask situation is.

Dr. Scott Geller (01:38):

Well, let's just start saying, but that if people wore these masks way back in March, many lives would be saved. I mean, that's the bottom line. I mean, and we have people resisting, you know, it, by the way, I've been in the safety field for over 40 years, and I've seen the same excuses in industry that we're hearing now, it's not going to happen to me, um, it's inconvenient. I mean, you can't tell me what to do. It's a free country, and we've heard all these things from people refusing to put on the mask. And, you know, I understand that, but there is a big difference between personal protective equipment, personal protective, this mask is, is public protective equipment. I mean, it's not for you, it's for others. And I'll say it again, if we'd been wearing these masks from the beginning, and we had people demonstrating that this is part of our culture, wearing a mask is, is a social norm. Many lives would be saved today, period. And we can save many more if we would just start doing this simple behavior, but again, we get resistance.

Shauna Costello (02:56):

And do you think that's the big difference between when we start comparing mask wearing to some of these other safety behaviors, like seatbelts, speed limits, stop signs, work PPE, safety glasses, things like that. Do you think that's the big, that's what the main differences is that this isn't for ourselves?

Dr. Scott Geller (03:19):

In terms of their purpose and let's face it, but the mask wearing does help me, by the way, I noticed you used the word seatbelt. I wish we would stop with the word seatbelt, they're not seatbelts. In fact, they're they're lap belts, but why don't we call them safety belts? And just like the mask, why don't we call them lifesaving or public protective equipment? Our language influences our behavior and we could go on and on about language, but I just had to get you on that. Cause you know, like safety is our number one priority, you hear that all the time and no, priorities get changed. Priorities change day by day, safety needs to become a value and wearing a mask needs to be a value. And if you're getting out of your car, I put on my mask, 'cause I don't want anybody to see me not wearing a mask because it is about setting the example to save lives.

Shauna Costello (04:22):

But I mean, why do you think it's been difficult for people to connect wearing a mask to some of these other safety related behaviors that they engage in, probably almost every day?

Dr. Scott Geller (04:38):

Well, I don't know that it's any different. I mean, not everybody wears a safety belt. I mean, back in the eighties, when we did our research, only 20% were buckled up. Today the data is there, 80% are buckled, but there were still 20% not putting on a simple safety belt in their car. Even though we have a law, of course, it's not easy to, to enforce that law, but people sometimes by not buckling up, they, they like it, It's a statement of my freedom. It's a statement of my choice, and so that's the problem. Some people resist being told what to do. So again, it's sometimes how we do it. A top down mandate, top down control. People resist that, especially in our country. You notice other countries got into the mask a lot earlier and they're much better off than we are with regard to COVID-19.

Dr. Scott Geller (05:33):

We wanted to assert our freedom, meaning I can go to these parties and have a good time. And, and by the way, here's another bad word, social distance. It's not a social distance it's a physical distance. It's a six foot physical distance. We have social social means I'm on the, on the internet. I'm on the telephone. That's social. So again, our language, it is interpersonal distance between people, and people were not following that, you know? Then because I feel great and here it is, it's not going to happen to me, but here is a big difference. I'll say it again, it's not going to happen to me, but it's not about you. That's the difference with this mask. This mask is about others. And by you not wearing the mask, you could be asymptomatic, by the way, you could be spreading the disease to us, elderly people, which is me, um, who can, who will catch it from someone, and then you really homicide. I mean, we have to think about it that way. So we call this mask is actively caring for people behavior, it's actively caring. We see, we all care about the situation. We all care about people dying every day. We all care about the fact that the United States is one of the worst with regard to controlling COVID-19. But do we act on that caring and that's the behavior piece. What do you do about your caring? Well, one simple thing folks is to wear a mask, to set an example for others. And if you see somebody not wearing a mask, what do you say? Now we're getting into a little difficult topic here. I mean, cause if you say put on a mask, then they're going to get resistance. And so how do you tell them? Corrective feedback is not easy to give, takes courage and it's not easy to accept.

Dr. Scott Geller (07:32):

So I don't have an answer except I do know we have to be more humanistic. There is a word for you, humanistic. We have to ask more questions. Like, why don't you wear a mask? Why don't you wear a mask? We're developing tee shirts that say on the front, I wear a mask for you. I'm wearing this mask for you. Why don't you wear a mask? And they might say, well, I don't have one. Oh good, I have one of my pocket. Here's this is for you. I mean, but be prepared, but ask the question in a nice way. And why do you care? Because I care, I don't want to actively, I'm just trying to help.

Shauna Costello (08:13):

And right when you said that, I was like, yeah, you brought that up in one of the articles that you wrote. And I thought even suggesting just having an extra mask in a Ziploc bag was a really great suggestion because I did recently go to a bridal shower and I was a little bit nervous about going to this bridal shower. Um, it was outdoors, the whole thing was outdoors. Everybody was very good about everything. But one of the gifts that they gave people coming to the bridal shower was a homemade mask.

Dr. Scott Geller (08:49):

Wow.

Shauna Costello (08:50):

One of the grandma's actually made masks and individually wrapped them in Ziploc bags for everyone.

Dr. Scott Geller (08:57):

Wow.

Shauna Costello (08:58):

When they, when they came up to the bridal shower. So that actually made me feel much better. And um, I know I've had a little bit of a different experience with the mask wearing and the social or physical distancing than some other individuals, because early on in the stay at home orders, um, my grandfather actually had a stroke and we couldn't go to the hospital with him because of everything going on. And then we had to make sure we were being safe so that when he did come home, he's fine now, everyone, don't worry. He's fine. He's doing great. Um, but when he did come home from the hospital, we wanted to make sure that we were, that we were able to help my grandma and him and not be bringing things, contaminants to the house. And so I have a little bit of a different experience with like a personal experience. And I think that that's kind of what we see a lot of is that when somebody is affected personally by something, then they start engaging in some of these behaviors.

Dr. Scott Geller (10:06):

That's beautiful. Now what you need to do is share that personal experience 'cause you guess what, this should be all of, this should be personal to all of us. And the big word by the way that we don't use enough is empathy. Empathy is making it personal, empathy is trying to see it from the other person's perspective. And it's not about independent. You know, we come in as world dependent on people that take care of us. Then we get to be teenagers and we're independent. And then we get stuck there. I can do it myself. I don't need you. But the mature person, the mature organization becomes interdependent. And that's a, that's a magical word today. We were, you heard this, we're all in this together. That's what interdependent means. And so your story, Shauna it's personal, but we all have to hear it and make it our story too. You know, cause again, many lives would have been saved had anybody, had we taken it personal. Had we actively cared by simple behavior of wearing this mask. And by the way, wearing this mask is a lot more convenient than a hard hat and some of the other protective equipment that they would require workers to wear in the workplace to protect themselves. This is to protect the public.

Shauna Costello (11:30):

And I mean, personally, my family and I are all, we would have been doing everything we can anyway. So I would spread that story to everybody that you know, would ask me about certain things. Um, and that's my small way, very small way of, you know, spreading reasons why to try and help people just to try and you know, kind of show that empathy like, hey this is, because we don't always know what people are, what people are being affected by either.

Dr. Scott Geller (12:04):

Shauna magic word you just said was tell people why, give people a rationale for the rule. I've seen it happen in industry, you know, you gotta wear your safety glasses gate to gate. I mean, we, we pass rules without giving a rationale. And perhaps with this mask also, we didn't give a, the proper rationale as we are talking now today for this just, just put on a mask or keep a physical distance, but maybe people need to hear the story, the rationale, the reason for it.

Shauna Costello (12:39):

Yes. And I think that this kind of also brings up when you talked about, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how, you know, towards the end of his, towards the end of his life, he added an extra, an extra rung in there at the top.

Dr. Scott Geller (12:59):

Yeah. And in fact, most of your listeners, if they heard about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they, uh, they heard the top is self-actualization. I mean, that's what it was for years. Even the introductory psychology textbooks, and I teach intro still. This is my 50th year at Virginia tech. I just finished my 50th year and, and the intro books, they have it wrong. Maslow's hierarchy, that's know how it goes. You satisfy your physical needs, you have enough sleep and enough food and you get up to the next level and your safety and security and you feel safe and secure. And now you worry about your social needs and then you get to self esteem and then there at the top, self-actualization notice how it all is about you. It's all self. I have enough food. I have things, I have self-esteem but Maslow, um, 1970.

Dr. Scott Geller (13:57):

And by the way, he was just 62 when he passed away. Um, um, and, and he said he was wrong. The top of this ladder, it's not about self. He called it self-transcendence, self-transcendence, going beyond yourself for somebody else is the top of the ladder. And think about it, we, we do this every day. You feed your dog, Shauna. You're that's, you're there. And you feel, by the way, don't we feel good when we reach out and help even an animal reach out, we feed our fish, you know, whatever we're helping doing beyond ourself, but that feeds our self esteem. And when you're helping other people that that feeds your, your connection with other people. So you don't have to satisfy all these other needs, by the way, to get to the top to reach out and help others. So if you say to yourself, I'm wearing this, this mask to help others.

Dr. Scott Geller (14:58):

I'm at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I've gone beyond myself. It's not for you, it's for others. And when you ask somebody, when you ask somebody, why are you wearing that mask? Um, or, and you go to that step, um, you're, you're helping them getting to think about it. Now his last book his wife published it, it's called the farthest reaches of human nature. And that's where he laid it out. That's where he said he was wrong. The best you could be is to go beyond yourself for somebody else. And how relevant is that for this day and age, right? With the, with the mask.

Shauna Costello (15:36):

Well, and I think that kind of brings it back to what you're talking about with humanism as well. And, um, one thing too, that I know we have talked about before, but that a lot of people don't realize in just the field of behavioral science, in the behavioral sciences is that, uh, BF Skinner actually won humanist of the year award.

Dr. Scott Geller (16:03):

Yes, and in 19, I think it was 1970 or something. He said, um, behaviorism is the way to make humanism more effective. What we are saying today, what I've been saying is humanism is the way to make behaviorism more effective. That is who you apply contingencies to influence behavior, you gotta get people to buy in. Again, realizing the rationale behind this, this rule. That's again, taking time to get their perspective on things, by the way the wonderful theory of is self motivation. Think about it. People need to feel self motivated, how to help people get self accountable. Now, this is, this is beyond typical behavior analysis or behavioral science. This is getting people to buy in to be self motivated. And it's a humanistic theory and it's been shown in many, many, much research. Um, Ed Deci, Richard Ryan have done a lot of research showing that when you, and your common sense will say, yeah, I I've been there.

Dr. Scott Geller (17:12):

When you feel some choice in what you're doing, will you, there's three C words where you feel a sense of competence. I'm good at doing this worthwhile task. You're more likely to be self motivated and it's very important for other people to help you realize that what you're doing is important. Now, we're now we're into supportive feedback. That's behavioral science and the third C word is community. We're all in this together. That's that interdependence again? So notice how well it fits at the, that the humanistic theory of self motivation, realizing we're doing it from the inside out. And again, that's why I like humanistic behaviorism because yes, the behaviors know how to get the job. We know how to manage behavior, but with humanistic behaviorism, we lead people. We lead people, we, and we manage behavior, but we want to manage behavior in such a way that people buy into it. People are self motivated to do the, follow the contingencies that you've set up for them.

Shauna Costello (18:20):

Well, and that kind of brings it back to some of what we might see going on right now with issues surrounding why individuals won't or don't wear a mask and you brought up counter control and psychological reactants as well. And I mean, can you talk a little bit more about, you know, kind of those and how those are being, how you can see those in like the media or even when like governor's speak or along those lines?

Dr. Scott Geller (18:55):

Well, we can get right back to the perception of choice, when I have the perception of choice, I'm more likely to do it because it's my idea. But you set up a, a top down control, you know, do it 'cause I told you, kind of like a boss or a bully perspective. I want to assert my freedom. You know, Skinner called it counter control. Others have called it psychological reactants. What we're doing is it's human nature, particularly in our country because we're not used to be pushed around. We got freedom to do what we, what we want to do and gets right back to the three C words, right? I feel choice. When you take that perception of choice and Deci and Ryan called it autonomy, same, same word. You take away that perception of autonomy or choice. I'm going to resist. I'm going to react.

Dr. Scott Geller (19:49):

I'm going to go to the party. I'm going to interact with people who, we're like minded. And we don't have to listen to these people telling, telling us what to do. I mean, here's the interesting language. Do you say to yourself, I got to do this, or I get to do this. Our language can make the, talk to yourself. It's not, I got to, it's I get to, did you wake up to an alarm clock or an opportunity clock? How do you see it? Here's the, here's one for the behavioral scientists. Are you a success seeker or a failure avoider, are you working to gain a positive consequence? Wearing this mask, I wear this mask for a positive consequence. I buckle up in my vehicle to protect myself and that's a positive consequence, but some people say I'm wearing this safety belt so the police won't give me a fine, that's just that's a failure avoider. And we know as behavioral scientists where we feel better when we're working for a positive consequence than we're working to avoid an aversive consequence.

Shauna Costello (20:58):

Well, and that makes me really wonder too, about how we can expand like these types of similar, you know, workplace contingencies that, you know, we've seen put in place. Cause I think that's probably the biggest area where people will see a lot of these safety measures in place, our workplace, or like you said, like the safety belts and things like that. But how can we get these contingencies to, you know, the bigger state or even Countrywide level, because right now, in the country, it kind of seems like it's every state for themselves. Um, so we might start at even a, even a smaller level. Like community-wide just citywide, even level. Like how would you suggest that we, is there something that, you know, we could do as individuals?

Dr. Scott Geller (21:46):

Well, Shauna, the first, the first thing you said in the workplace, we do have a smaller group. We have a sense of community. There's another C-word community and we can have toolbox meetings and we can have conversations and we can, we can talk to people, but now out in the community, in the real world, that's tougher. And so you're, you're creating that. The challenge is by the way, it's about communication. It's about podcasts like this, and it's about people listening and then sharing what they've heard and talking about it that they say, don't talk politics, by the way, there's another issue. We don't want to go there, but we've made wearing a mask politics. We made it political, but I think we need to talk about it. I think we need to listen, share, be empathic, but I needed through it's about communication. It is about communication.

Dr. Scott Geller (22:39):

And again, if somebody is not wearing a mask or not keeping that physical distance, you need to just be nice about it and say, hey, you know, it's for you. I wear this mask for you. Can't wait to get these t-shirts made. I mean, that's the message. And, but it takes communication and it is more difficult. Cause it's, we're diverse. We, it's community. But you did say we can start with our neighborhoods. We can start with our neighbors, our friends. We can talk with Ben and we could say, look, have the courage. Here's the there's three more words. Have the courage to speak up, the courage to ask questions, the courage to wear the mask, and have the courage to give feedback; behavior scientists know this, you get supportive feedback. We don't give enough of that. You know, that's how you build competence, a sense of competence, but then corrective feedback done in a right way.

Dr. Scott Geller (23:37):

That's when you get to be humanistic. You don't just say that's wrong. Change your behavior. That's a turnoff. Now we get psychologic reactants. So you have to do it from a humanistic perspective. See, and then that's, that's the C word. So we need to, we need to talk about this with other people from our families. So again, what I say is have the courage to give feedback supportive and corrective, okay? How about having the humility? Everybody talk about this, have the humility to accept feedback. We all can improve, there's, we can all improve our behavior; life, our lifetime, even at my age, I'm almost 80 years old and I still try to learn every day and I try to teach every day. Our legacy is teaching and learning. So have the humility, I mean, yeah, to, to accept. And then third word integrity. When someone gives you feedback and they're right, instead of being resistant own up.

Dr. Scott Geller (24:46):

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank that person for the, for the feedback they give you. And if they give you corrective feedback in the wrong way, hey, you should wear the mask. We should say, excuse me. Um, ask me nicely. And besides I don't have a mask, but if I had one, I'd be wearing it. Do you have one to give me? I mean, we could go on and on, but the bottom line is we need to talk about it. We need to talk to our friends, our neighbors, and then they will talk to somebody else. In that regard, can I just say something about the actively caring for people movement?

Shauna Costello (25:22):

Yeah, that is exactly where I was going to go next because not only are not only do I want to hear more about it as well, but I mean, you have an upcoming series, new podcast series with us. That's going to be titled, actively caring for people. So I think I would love to hear more.

Dr. Scott Geller (25:41):

It was April 16th, 2007, a student came on campus and, and killed 32, 32 faculty and students in the classroom. It was terrible. Some of you may remember this. I mean, it was a terrible experience, I was here. Um, but what happened after that experience? People started truly caring. I got phone calls from friends, all I mean, people that I didn't even know, but they knew my name. Are you okay, Scott? We know you're at Virginia tech and, and on and on, people started to care. And then we said, though do they actively care, but it was reactive. They were reacting to the tragedy. We need proactive caring. So it was at that point my students said, let's, let's start actively caring for people movement AC4P actively caring for movement. And I had, we have these wristbands and I have been giving out these wristbands. It's a green wristband.

Dr. Scott Geller (26:48):

It says actively caring for people. And I've been giving it out for years for safety. And my students suggested why don't we put a number on these wristbands? And every number is different. And so what we do is here's, it's called the STEP process briefly STEP, see an act of kindness, see, and thank them. That's the T thank them with this wristbands, it's a green wristbands that says actively caring for people. And then E, E is enter that positive experience at the website. We have a website AC4P.org, actively caring for people dot AC4P.org, how simple as that? And enter the story. If you go there today, you'll see thousands of positive stories along with a number that is our, the, the story goes with the wristband number. And then of course the next letter in STEP is pass. Pass it on, pass on this wristband to others.

Dr. Scott Geller (27:50):

Now I might say that we have police in several communities right now, and this needs to get bigger. We have blue wristbands for police officers and police officers wear a blue wristband. They have their own website, activelycaringpolicing.org. And so a police officer in some, in several cities in Arizona, for example, and in Virginia, if they see an act of kindness, they take off the wristband and they give it to this citizen. And then they go to the, the website and they enter it at the police website, activelycaringpolicing.org. The bottom line is, it's what behavioral scientists know. It's positive consequences. It's, it's showing that you care, it's actively caring. Notice actively caring is humanistic behaviorism. Cause humanism is caring, acting is behavior. So it's all there. And so that's, that's the movement. And we have another website it's called www.GellerAC4P my name AC4P.com.

Dr. Scott Geller (29:00):

And that my daughter started that she, she, um, got her PhD at Virginia tech in human development. And the point is you can, I have written now about 12 books, um, four on this, on the basic principles of actively caring. We have one for police officers. Matter of fact, we have a manual for police officers. So we teach them the principles, remember? This is not, you just don't do this. You have to learn the rationale, the reason behind it. And then, so we have one for, for police. We have one for, for schools, for teachers, we have one for college students. We have one for safety professionals, but the basic message is actively care for others through humanistic behaviorism.

Shauna Costello (29:47):

And I'm really excited for that because, um, you've been nice enough to share a lot of your work with me and, you know, I've been reading even more and more about it. And I'm really excited to hear some of the, some of the podcast episodes that you have coming up and to share them. Because I think that from my perspective, this I, when I was put into contact with you, I was very excited. And somebody even said to me like, oh, I'm not sure. 'Cause you know, Scott Geller, isn't a traditional behavior scientist. I'm like, what's a traditional behavior scientist? I was like, that's the point is dissemination. And the work that you do is so important and it can bring what somebody might think of traditional ABA to an entirely different level. And this is something that I, it's a question I get a lot or that I see a lot as well because people see what job I have and they're like, well, how did you get into doing something like that? That's not what BCBAs do. Um, I get that question a lot and they're like, how can we, you know, how can we get out of this clinical work? What else can we do with our degree? It's like you, the world is your oyster, really. This is something as well that I think is going to be a really good place to come and learn about some other areas and what behavior analysis is really doing outside of what they may have learned about.

Dr. Scott Geller (31:25):

That is so true. You know, the big word is dissemination.

Shauna Costello (31:28):

Yeah.

Dr. Scott Geller (31:28):

We behavior scientists or you could say behavior analysts. We know a lot about how to influence behavior, but no nobody's hearing about it. I was editor. I was the editor of JABA from 1989 to 1992. And one of my missions at the time was to take behavior analysis beyond developmental disabilities. I mean, what I mean to say, there's more that we can help with beyond just about. And we tried and go back and look at some of those issues. We had special issues on transportation, special issues. We had a whole issue on social validity, community behavior analysis. So we attempted it, but you know, for a while we did okay, but that's, that's been my mission. My mission is to take the science to the real world to make a difference. And we all can do that.

Dr. Scott Geller (32:22):

And again, if you have a degree in behavior analysis, you, you understand contingency management, you understand some basic lessons that people need to know, but you can't say behavior modification. There's another mistake in our language, you know, modify mod behavior. We can't, we need to put it in a language that people will accept. That means be empathic, you know, be a little humanistic. So what we'll do in our series, I hope is, well, we'll talk about how we take the basic language, the basic principles that we know, and we make it real for the public.

Shauna Costello (33:00):

And I think that that really relates to not only what the message really is for, you know, actively caring for people, but also to what's going on in the world right now with COVID with a lot of the other things that are happening too, a lot of the other social issues that are happening. And we don't necessarily need to get into those right now. But, but I mean, bringing that back to this mask wearing behavior and seeing it, I mean, one thing that I thought, I thought of while we were talking actually is how many times have we seen on the news that a teenage to young twenties person has been injured because they wouldn't, they told somebody they couldn't come into their store because they weren't wearing a mask. And then I thought about it, I was like, how many times do I walk into the grocery store? And I don't thank that person who's standing there for what they're doing. I was like, that is one small thing that I can do. Not only for that person whose, whose job it is. Like, they're just trying to make money. That is their job. But also for the other people who are around me, walking in and out of the store to hear that as well.

Dr. Scott Geller (34:15):

I'll tell you what, that's the power of gratitude. We could do a whole session on gratitude. The field of positive psychology started by Marty Seligman 20 plus years ago. How do we look at the other side of the coin? Psychology typically is studying the mostly disturbed, the behavioral disturbed, whatever the other side, what is happiness? What makes people happy? And it's been shown that showing gratitude increases your own happiness. So we, again, of course we could call it supportive feedback because we know that showing gratitude builds a sense of competence in the person we're talking to. And that builds self motivation. So there's all kinds of rationale for doing it. But when you show gratitude, you're at the top of Maslow's hierarchy, you're going beyond yourself for somebody else to thank them for something they're doing. We do more of that. Let's thank them for wearing a mask.

Dr. Scott Geller (35:16):

How many times do you see someone in mask do you give them a thumbs up? So such a simple thing. Thank you. Thank you for the mask. When I go into Walmart, there's actually a person there giving out masks if you don't have one. I had one on, but I also asked for another one. So then I have one to give to somebody else. But the point is, I genuinely want to thank them for doing that. So sometimes we take that for granted, but we see a mistake. We, well, we see an error, man. We focus on the mistakes and that's failure avoiding. We need to become success seekers and we need to look for success and reward success with some gratitude.

Shauna Costello (35:58):

Yeah. And I think that that's a really good spot to make sure that you don't have anything else that you want to say about this topic because you covered a lot. And again, I'll put the names of the articles and the websites of course, links to the websites in the description of the podcast. So, um, but do you have anything else that you want to make sure to say about the current mask situation or humanistic behaviorism or actively caring for people?

Dr. Scott Geller (36:28):

First, Shauna gratitude man, gratitude for you. To go through putting, doing this, you know, for contacting people and putting this stuff out there because we can't keep it in the ivory tower. It's got to get out to the real world and without you, we can't make a difference. Science can't make a difference without people disseminating it. So that's the big word disseminate. And I do hope people might check out our website, you know, GellerAC4P.com. That's easy, check out the books we've got there. Um, and I've got two coming to you, Shauna in the mail.

Shauna Costello (37:05):

Two?

Dr. Scott Geller (37:05):

But the most, the most recent book with my daughter is, is called the human dynamics of achieving an injury-free the workplace. And it's actively caring for people and that's, you'll get, I put it in the mail a few days ago.

Shauna Costello (37:20):

Thank you. I'm very excited.

Dr. Scott Geller (37:23):

And I got another one called 50 lessons to enrich your life. And each lesson is founded on behavioral science and, and or humanism, you know, like the first, first lesson, the first lesson is give more positive consequences. And we all know that, but I try to communicate in such a way that the reader can share it with others. So this was a, this is a book to share with others, but you can see more. You can see if you go to AC4P.org. There's actually reviews from people who have read that book. And anyway, the resources are there. I hope people will take a look and Shauna, thank you very much. It's been a delight to talk with you. And I look forward to followup conversations like this.

Shauna Costello (38:12):

I'm very excited I'm, and I can't wait to see what's coming. Thank you for listening to the first episode of actively caring for people. Tune in every other Friday for a new episode from dr. Geller. And as always, if you have questions, comments, feedback, or suggestions, please feel free to reach out to us at operantinnovations@abatechnologies.com.