Operant Innovations Monthly 003 | Turnover in Human Services | Dr. Byron Wine

Shauna Costello (00:00:00):

You're listening to operant innovations, a podcast brought to you by ABA technologies. This month, we are talking with Dr. Byron Wine and answering some FAQs that we gathered from social media and email in response to what questions people have about employee turnover. Recently, Byron released a CE through ABA technologies about decreasing turnover in human services. So if you're interested, that link is in the info section of the podcast, but if you want to get a little sneak peek of what that CE entails, enjoy this Q & A session with Dr. Byron Wine. We're here with Dr. Byron Wine to talk a little bit more about turnover. So thank you for joining us.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:00:48):

Thanks for having me appreciate it.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:00:50):

And we reached out via social media and email to get some questions from, from individuals to see what they were wondering about turnover. Um, so we'll get started. And the first question is what is turnover?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:01:07):

Yeah, so broadly speaking, turnover's a relatively easy concept, right? It's simply the permanent separation, uh, of an employee. So if you just stayed with that definition, it could get a little confusing. But first I would point out things like, uh, FMLA, there are several types of leaves that are covered, or if somebody gets injured, short term disability, they are still on your payroll. So they're still your employees. You may have to, sometimes people get confused because you may have to hire another employee to cover that, to cover that position. But that's not an instance of turnover. They're still on your payroll. Uh, also independent contractors are technically not your employees. So when they leave there, they should not be counted as turnover. They've never actually worked for you in the first place. So if you just stayed with that kind of basic definition, uh, you'd have, you'd have a beginning.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:02:01):

And unfortunately, I guess that would work. Maybe if your organization was completely static and you weren't growing or shrinking or anything, but I have yet to work for a, an organization that wasn't changing. Um, one of these days, maybe I'll work for a nice static company and I won't have to do any hard work anymore to grow it or any of that kind of stuff. But typically, you know, the old business adage is if you're not growing, you're dying. Um, so most people are trying to get bigger. And so when you get bigger, your staffing needs increase. And so you actually, when you look at turnover and you think about it as a phenomenon, you have to look at what human resources, uh, typically call rate of turnover. It's not rate how behavior analysts would use the term, right? Uh, so it's a little, it's a little different, but it's essentially the number of people leaving is only helpful if you take it in context of the total staffing needs you need at any period of time.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:02:58):

So the formula is typically the number of separations. That's the HR term for somebody leaving permanently divided by the average staffing needs. And that is usually calculated per month. Um, nothing saying you have to do it like that, but that just seems the way human resources does it. So you take multiple observation of your staffing needs within any months, and you get an average of those staff, because if you're growing, you know, you need the average, you can't just kind of randomly pick a number. So that's turnover.

Shauna Costello (00:03:31):

Great. And you mentioned that, you know, this is kind of what HR is looking at, and I know that you're doing a lot of research with turnover, but why should behavior analysts care about turnover?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:03:44):

Right. Well, from a broad sense, it's actually that, that we got that question and I kind of liked the way it's phrased because um, turnover is going to happen. So I think it's almost like people are just going to leave and I acknowledge that. So maybe I'm not going to worry about it, but there, and I like that bravado, but there is, um, there is some clinical literature, uh, not specifically in behavior analysis, but at other human services, uh, organizations to HSOs showing that, uh, lots of turnover can impact clinical services. And that's sort of intuitive too much turnover too quickly, uh, could lead to detrimental service. Uh, you just simply don't have enough person power to deliver the services that you need, or you have an influx of brand new staff members who now have to do all the complicated plans and you lost all your veterans, right?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:04:37):

There's also some literature suggesting that it's increased stress on the remaining staff members to have to kind of pick up the Slack. And that's also intuitive, right? So I think at a, in some sense, we acknowledged that turnover's going to happen. Uh, actually according to the Bureau of labor statistics for the ages of 25 to mid thirties or so, the median tenure at an organization is 3.2 years. So turnover is definitely going to happen. The days of you graduate from college and you join a big organization, you stay there your whole career, those are gone, right? People, uh, I think the average is people have about five or six different jobs throughout their career. So they're going to leave, but if they leave too quickly, then you, especially in a, in a, uh, an organization that focuses on ABA services where we need people to deliver the services, uh, it can be, it can be somewhere from annoying to devastating, um, depending on, on the rate of leaving.

Shauna Costello (00:05:41):

Yeah. And I know that, I mean, just from hearing some of my friends talk as well, like when she left college, she's like, I'm only staying in this job a max of five years and then I'm leaving.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:05:51):

Yeah. That's an interesting opinion. Right. I've heard that as well, several times. And I think that that's just, I don't want to speak beyond my data, but I think that's just where society has sort of moved now. Right. Uh, and it's, uh, I hear those A, A priority things of like, I'm going to do five years here and then I'm moving on. And I always want to say, yeah, but what if you really like it at the end of five years? Uh, I dunno, it's an interesting thought. I think also in this field, I was speaking more of, you know, the tech level people. But if you think of behavior analyst, I think it's a growth field, right. Behavior analysis, uh, the number of BCBAs is, is just the curve is exponential in terms of new people coming in the field and we still can't meet the demand.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:06:34):

Right? So there's, there are big opportunities still in the United States. If you're willing to move to certain spots where there, there are no behavioral analysts, but funding, you can start your own business and you can, you know, you can do it. So I think there some contingencies in place for people going, getting a little experience and then moving out on their own to start their own, uh, organization. Uh, and then they're really in trouble cause that's much harder than people think. But, uh, but I think that that is kind of the career path for, for some people or they want to move, you know, a couple of years here and then I want to go be a clinical director and I'll move from, go somewhere else. And they're kind of following that upward trajectory pretty fast.

Shauna Costello (00:07:13):

Yeah. And she ended up staying more than five years, but I know she got, she like, oh wait, I do actually really like this. So, um, but yes, no, I completely see what you mean, especially I know we're getting a lot of questions about starting businesses and that's a whole different topic because.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:07:30):

It is a whole different topic, but my general answer is don't do that. Um, it's much harder than you think it's going to be.

Shauna Costello (00:07:39):

Yes. It really is. Um, all right. And to kind of go with why people should care about turnover. Um, I'm interested in your answer to this next question because it seems to be assuming a lot, but it's, I run a good business, but people still leave. Why?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:08:00):

Yeah. If I could answer that, I think if I could, can an answer to that, I'd live in a much bigger house probably. Right. Um, so yeah, I think you're, I think you're right. It assumes quite a bit. So when somebody says I run a good business, I'm assuming it's a behavior analysis organization. Right. And they are, they're providing some sort of behavioral analytics service. We don't, and as you know, that's a big, you could run a school or you could be in home or you could run residential facilities. So I don't know, I don't know what they do. Um, well, let's take them at their word. Right. Let's uh, let's think about it. Maybe they run a center and they've got, if Aubrey Daniels himself walked in there and with a checklist of everything, they should have, it's all there. And, and he says, I don't know, I have nothing else to say, uh, for this organization.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:08:53):

Uh, but people are still leaving. The kind of related last question is yep, people are going to leave. That is, that is just the way that society is now. And I won't, again, like we talked about earlier, I won't posit as to why that is. Cause I'd be speaking beyond what, you know, my area of expertise, but I think there's a couple of things to think about. One is behavior analysis is a young field, right? In terms of like it's only been around, but also the practitioners in the field are typically pretty young. And we also rely on tech level individuals. And I, I haven't seen any systematic data, so I'll speak to my own. As I look around the school and my place here, the median age is probably mid twenties. I would think for the people providing the services, a lot of them, you know, just got bachelor's degrees or they're still working on a bachelor's degree and they're here.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:09:47):

Um, so when you deal with a lot of young individuals, uh, they are not done figuring out what life is going to be. Right? So they move and they get married and they have kids and they change careers and they decide they're going to go to grad school and they do all the things that you would expect people to do. Right. So I think there's that. And the data bear that out, by the way, the older, the older you get the, you start switching jobs less often, which is not surprising to anybody else. You've got a 20 year old, the Bureau of labor statistics pretty clear had 20 year old changes jobs a lot more than a 50 year old. Right. Uh, because once you're 50, you know, you've got kids and a mortgage and houses and you can't just go right. As easily as somebody else can.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:10:31):

So I think that's, that's a piece of it. Uh, the other part of it is there's that the question is so broad, what actually would have helped a lot is where do you live? I wonder, because if you're in California, you cannot throw a rock without hitting a behavior analysis organization over there. That's hiring behavior analysts. So people are, there's tons of choices. I don't even live on the West coast and I get West coast job advertisements in my email all the time. Um, people wanting me to move out West and, and set up, set up, shop out there. And I suspect a lot of people get those as well. And so if you're in a place like New Jersey or New York or California, or even Florida, Florida is a little different, I suppose, just from living down there, there's a lot of behavior analysts, but the job, the, the remuneration rates is different.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:11:25):

But if you're in a place where there's a lot of jobs, you're constantly flooded with options. Whereas if you're a behavior analyst in Montana, there's probably fewer options available for you. So I think that that's another piece of it as well. Um, and then when I think about why people leave, you know, it's an interesting, and again, they didn't specify the type of employee they're talking about. So, and I've been talking more about texts. If you talk about behavior analysts, the one thing I always is, they probably behavior analysts want, if you're a behavior analyst, you're in an organization that the people working for you want what you have too, you know, they want, they want to grow. They want to grow and become a, you know, senior behavior analyst as well. A lot of them, not everybody, some people just want to work with clients and that's awesome.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:12:13):

Like, I, I think that's great too, but a lot of people they want to, they want their own, they want to plant their own flag in the ground. And so why are they leaving well, because they want to own an organization or they want to be into it as well. There's a solution to that, by the way you find people, you can't live without. And you make them part owners of your, of your organization. If you want to stop people from leaving, then you gotta, you got to invest them in your, your organization. So,

Shauna Costello (00:12:40):

Yeah. Yeah. And I know that you mentioned that our field is young as in like age wise and at FABA this year, I like to bring this up, but James Carr brought up some data about behavior analysts. And when they've been credentialed, 50% of BCBA's have been credentialed since 2016. Yep. And the other 50% is from before. Um, so when you say our field is young, it it's young. So yes,

Dr. Byron Wine (00:13:16):

That's, you know, and I think that's, wow. I didn't realize the data were that, um, that stark, but, and that's probably, you know, I don't see any signs that curve is going to slow down either. So I think that could actually continue, right. It could become even more, we could get up to 60 or 70% in a couple of years. Um, and that's, that's another thing related to turnover, which is, I think that there's a lot of BCBAs in general that have been around for two or three years, you know, and they, they want to grow. And I think that we, we've kind of tried to address that here in that you have a new Bader analyst coming in, they have a BCBA, which is as far as, as far as I'm considered, that means you are minimally qualified to practice, right? You have, you have just passed the test.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:14:06):

You are minimally qualified to be out here and doing your thing. You still need to be under supervision of a, of a senior person who's been in the field five, 10, 10 years or more. I think it's the best. Um, and in my opinion, you shouldn't be going off on your own until you've been around at least 10 years under somebody who knows what they're talking about, but that's just my opinion. But I think in that time, if you want to keep them, you need to have a method for them to grow. And so they need to be learning things and doing things that they didn't do in grad school. And that can look a lot of different ways, but for my bigger analysts here they come in and we teach them part of their professional development program. That is how they, how they get more money is they present at conferences, they do research projects and they conduct OBM. We teach them how to do some OBM projects and they do that. And they do, uh, they have to demonstrate it a number of high level clinical skills that go beyond the task list. You know, the, some of the newer competing stimulus assessment stuff coming out of Hopkins and they have to demonstrate proficiency in all of that stuff. So they have, and it's very clearly specified for them so that they feel like they're progressing in their career and they're getting to grow as well. It makes feel, they feel satisfied in that.

Shauna Costello (00:15:20):

Yes. And yep. I saw the same thing when I was overseeing my clinic and homeschool services. You know, my RBTs, they knew that if they got a BCABA, they knew what they could do with that. And then they knew what would happen if they got their master's. And in Michigan, it's a little bit different because Michigan has a, once you have your degree, your master's degree before you sit for the exam or find out you qualify as a, as a QBHP, qualified behavioral health professional to practice in the same realm as a BCBA, as long as you're being supervised, it's just to help with that wait time from when they take the exam and find out, um, and then get the BCBA. And then so yeah, seeing, you know what I mean, like they knew what could happen and they knew everything and they knew that we were going to close down to go to the behavior analysis association of Michigan conference. And so I think when someone says I run a good business, I also wonder when I say that's assuming a lot, I think you really need to talk to your people and see what's going on. I mean, I don't know how you feel about like exit interviews. I've seen people use those, those before really talk to your people and see what's going on because

Dr. Byron Wine (00:16:43):

Yeah. So, you know, we use exit interviews. Um, I have an exit interview system here. The, if you look up the data on exit interviews, they're not great, uh, which is that, you know, the whole idea of an exit interview is supposedly I go, Shauna, you turn your, leave your notice to leave it. Right. And then I anonymously, uh, not your super, I need to deliver this anonymous survey. So you feel free to say what you're going to say or whatever you want to say. And then hopefully that data is de-identified and then put up so that I can, I can see patterns over time with the staff members, the data showing, you know, from some studies that, that provides useful information that you can then go and create something is, is a little missing. I don't know that behavior analysts have, have really tackled that yet.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:17:34):

What I do with exit interviews is I do allow them the ability to write open. And I do want to hear open-ended cause I am looking for qualitative themes. I am a behavior analyst, but still, I mean, we'll, we'll look for themes and qualitative narrative data. Right. But the, what I'm actually interested in is I want to know where you're going next. So if you, if you say I'm leaving and I'm going to retire, well, good. I'm happy for you. I wish you're a little young, but I wish you the best of, I wish you the best of luck in your retirement, right? Because that's what I would call a, an instance of a good separation. Right? You are leaving to go and do and do that one that we have around here a lot is stay at home parents, right? They have, they have, and usually it's when they have their second kid or their third child and they realize I just want to be home.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:18:28):

And in that case, I wish you the best of luck. If you want to come back in a couple of years, when they're in school, will doors open, you were a good employee. Um, but that's not a bad thing. Right? And so that was a similar, it was something I was going to say to, I run a good business. Why do people still leave? There are reasons people leave that are not bad. Right. And then there's, you know, then there are a category that I call like neutral, which is not good or bad, really, which is, and one of the big ones that I see here, especially at the, at the tech level is, uh, they tried human services and they don't like it. And that's a, you know, entry level staff members that happens to behavior analysts, right. They get in and they work and they're like, man, I don't like doing this.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:19:13):

I need to do something else. Um, and that's not good or bad, but I don't want you here is my short answers. If you don't want to be, this job is hard. And if you don't want to do it, then no hard feelings, you know? Um, another is, um, sometimes people come in and they realize they can't physically do the work there. If you have an injury or something else. And they thought they could, but they can't. Right. And, and that's fine too. You know, you, you, I wish you the best of luck and, and go find a position that, that works for you and your, your physical capabilities. However, the one that I really keep an eye on is when people are leaving to go to direct competitors, that's, that's what that's bad. That's bad. Right. Um, and cause if they're going to the shop down the street and you see a pattern of that over time, I think Shauna, that's what you were getting at, which is that's a problem. And you need to really dig in and figure out why. And I don't know that you're gonna get that from an exit interview. I think what the exit interview would tell you is it sends up a red flag, like, wow, there's something they're paying a lot more money down the street or, or there's something going on in your company, then you don't, you don't know what it is. And that that's a scary side. I think he could watch for that.

Shauna Costello (00:20:26):

Yup. Yup, exactly. Um, and let's see, our next one is you were talking about the turnover rate before, but how about if somebody knows the turnover rate for their company and they also understand the cost, what else do they need to know? And what are some of the essential things to do to help the staff stay longer?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:20:52):

Well, they got the first two pieces down, right? So you're watching the turnover. You have, uh, um, you have a good idea of what it costs. Don't use cost estimates. You know, you figure out what it actually costs you. Um, so that you actually know what Shauna leaves, I know that that's going to cost me $10,000 about or whatever, whatever it is, right.

Shauna Costello (00:21:14):

Especially if we're talking about like RBTs or that level of, because I know the company I worked at, we provided the RBT training for them.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:21:24):

Right. And that's a cost that every new person you bring in, you either have to pay, if you're using an online system where somebody has got to sit there and you've got to pay them for it to do all that, the training and it's not short. Right. And then they got to do the competencies and stuff after that. Um, and I started, that's a lot of work. So what are some of the essential things you can do to help staff stay longer? This is, I think it's new staff, right? So I think, but, uh, I'll go through the common things that kind of people talk about. And there's a few others, I think we'll get to later, but what is, I guess you could just pay them more. Cause that's what everybody always says, right? If you want people to stay, you pay them more. Uh, and in fact, in my narrative recording, I don't want to say, cause I think this is probably going to hold true for everybody.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:22:10):

If you ask anybody, anybody in the field, when they leave, what's one thing you could do. They always say any more money, always. You know, and I've just as a joke. I've, you know, when I give talks, I, so raise your hand, if you could use another couple grand a year and of course every, um, but of course it belies the notion of, of human services sort of in general, in that the larger, your direct care staff force, the bigger percentage of your, of the money going out, that is. And so the ability for you to just give a gross increase, actually diminishes the larger that they are because the margins are not, you know, they're that big and human services. We're not, we're not bankers or in the oil business or anything where we have, we just have tons of cash laying around. So the idea that you could just pay them more is, is not, not good.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:23:07):

I often think, you know, I've done the math here and in a lot of businesses for people. And I, I suspect that the amount of money you could give everybody at the direct care level across the board is not enough. That would actually move the needle. I think, to actually stop somebody from turning over. Um, so in terms of pay, I do think if you have the two or three clinicians that are really valuable, then yeah, you, you can pay them. Right. But that's just three people, right? It's not, that's not the 50 direct care staff that you have. And um, so just bumping up their salary is not really available. I think I would go back to the professional development that we were talking about earlier. I think just like behavior analysts need a growth path. I think the direct care staff members that we shown this in, in some data we collected recently, they need a path forward as well.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:23:56):

And there's kind of two branches. When you talk about direct care staff, there's, there's one group of people who are, who want to go to school and maybe they want to do this when they grow up, right. They want to, they want to be special education teachers or behavior analyst or something. And they want to go to school to do that. And that's great. That's one group. And so the, the answer that I tell everybody is if you can afford it, help them go to school, pay, pay for them to go to school, right. Uh, invest in the staff members and, and show them that you care. And it works. Now, sometimes you pay for them and they still leave. Right. I mean, that, that happens. There's no way, there's no way around that. Um, and I think it's not unreasonable to set up, you know, I give you this much money.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:24:38):

You work for me for a little while afterwards, you just, you can't, you have to be fair about it, right? And you can't say, I own you for 20 years, but a year or two or a year for every year that I pay. I mean, I've seen several things that sound pretty fair. The deals that I would have taken if they were available while I was in grad school. But they're back then. And that in the dark ages, there was nothing but nothing but student loans and pain while I was going. But, um, I think that's one method, but then there's another group of staff members who are not going to go to school. They don't want to go back to grad school. Um, and they are your they are your people, you need them, right? Because they can turn into these veteran staff members who can train new employees and you can count on them.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:25:24):

And they're always there. And even though you offer for them to go to school, they say, Hey, for one reason or another school is not for me, or I just don't want to do it, or I I'm too busy, uh, whatever fine, but they need a professional development path as well. Uh, and I, there are methods to do that. We just published a study in JOBM. I'm not too long ago, that describes our particular system where we, we, we have badges. Um, so there's a badge and then it looks like this and everybody wears it. And on the back, I don't have any badges. I don't have any, I don't, I haven't done any, but you, you know, you, they get badges. You actually put the things on them after they complete some personalized system of instruction. And then they, uh, so they wear the badges around that.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:26:07):

It is correlated with a small increase in money, um, but giving people small increases for engaging in performance, you know, is much different and much more manageable than just saying everybody gets an across the board raise. So it gives them things to work towards. And it gives a lot of social recognition for getting your badges. Right. And there's a lot of praise and it's publicly posted. And, uh, the teachers and other staff are encouraging. So, uh, that, that, isn't something we set up that just sort of happened. And so that was a cool, like side effect of it. Uh, so that's a method for them to move forward as well. It doesn't have to look like that, but I think if you want people to stay, uh, you, you have to do that. You have to have something for them. And then I have one more that I'm picky.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:26:50):

I don't do this, but I know people who do it and I've kicked it around over and over and over again, which is childcare. Um, so again, so do you just think about the employees who are working for you, right? A lot of people in their twenties and thirties, and what do people in their twenties and thirties do? A lot of times they start having kids. Childcare for those of you who don't have children is like a mortgage, right? If you send, if you send a young child to a daycare, it's very expensive in some parts of the country, it's like, it's almost, you shouldn't work, right? It's so expensive. So we, you know, one thing that I've seen several organizations do is they set up either free or very, very cheap, but good quality childcare sort of on premise or near, near the organization.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:27:41):

Now that has a cost as well. That's not free. You start dealing with, uh, you know, you have to, you have to get it approved and every state is different. So it's not like you can just do this. It's not, it's not easy and you probably will lose money. Right. I mean, there's a cost to that. Um, well, I don't, I think it's still, probably cheaper than giving everybody a, a big giant raise and not everybody will take advantage of it, but I I've heard. And I, again, I don't have any systematic data, but I've heard from the people who do it, that they stay. Right. I mean, the, the employees stay because it's not only are you getting good cheap, cheapish, or free childcare, but they're really close. I mean, you know, you could go see your kids on your lunch break and that has a cool kind of value to it as well. So, cause you know, it's hard to have young kids. I have a young kid now and it's hard to work a lot when I know he's home and I want to go see him. So the ability to like have him close while I'm working would be, would be neat as well. So I, I think that would do it. I think that would be really helpful and specifically target a, a large number of people who, who kind of struggled with childcare as well.

Shauna Costello (00:28:55):

And this is just me thinking from my clinical mindset as well. I know that when I was in grad school, Dr. Malott has a clinic called the Kalamazoo autism center and it's much larger now, but back in my day it was one room of a, of a daycare center. So we had one section of this little, like four section daycare. And at the same time though, our kids that we got to, that we were working with, they, we actually got to use and take advantage of the neuro-typical kids in the daycare to work on other skills as well. And so I'm not saying that's right for everybody, but in that sense, it worked out really, really well because we had all of these peers. To start working on other skills with them at our, like at our, yeah. They were just right at our fingertips. And so we could, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like a constant thing. It was just when it was appropriate. But, but yeah, so, and like I said, that's not, of course not for everyone, but that was something cool that we got to take advantage of.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:30:13):

Yeah. We run a program on campus. Uh, the early intervention program here is in a building that it's a center based program and it's right next to, in the same building, like literally across the hall is a, just a typical preschool. So we, I partnered with a preschool in the area, uh, cause I don't know how to run a preschool, I guess I could learn, but I didn't want to. And uh, so we gave the preschool cheapish rent and so they moved in. So it's a very similar model so that our kids, what we were finding is they were coming in early and we were getting them ready to go, but they weren't ready to fully go. So we needed kind of the ability to push into preschools. So we, we, it's the same kind of model where we would slowly start fading them in. And then eventually when they were ready, they would just be in the preschool. So same idea. I could see how somebody could, uh, could work on something like that. I know that, you know, I'll just speak for myself. I would have been fine with my kids, be, you know, helping and working with, with other people. I think that's neat. I think that's good for the, for the peers as well. I think that's, I think that'd be a good thing. That's a good thought.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:31:24):

Yes. I know that just randomly popped into my head while we were talking about it. Also, this was a, I kind of liked this question, um, because I had kind of had my own answer to it, um, that has nothing to do with research or anything, but, um, what can be done during the interview process to weed out candidates a bit better and why aren't they attracting maybe they might not be attracting the right candidates in the first place.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:31:53):

Yeah. So that's, that's an interesting question. And, and I think it depends on the level of employee you're talking about. So again, there's, there's the tech level and then there's behavior analysts. So I'm not sure what she's, what she's asking there, but we'll go ahead. I'll give my answer to both that. I'm curious to hear your answer, um, as well for, for techs, there is there's some data on what's called a realistic job preview. That that is pretty good. And so what a realistic job preview is, uh, you know, most interview process. If you just walk in, they will, they do a couple of things. They talk to you for a half hour, uh, they check your references and this is human services. So they probably run a background, check on you and, and uh, something like that. And then that's basically it. And if you meet some minimum qualifications and we're like, Shauna's interviewing me and I, she doesn't think I'm too weird or something that I just get the job right at the tech level.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:32:52):

Um, because let's be honest, you know, I think one thing with the techs is you can't afford to turn a lot of people away. Uh, I mean, that's just sort of the reality. Everybody would like to run an autism clinic right next to like Auburn or Western or something. And that all their grad students just come and work for me. Right. And I'm, they're like my little indentured servants and I don't have to pay them much of anything, but they're really smart and motivated. That's just not how life works for most of us. Right. So we get people and, and if you, if they meet the qualifications and they seem like they're enthusiastic and they're motivated, then typically you give them a shot, but there is something called a real realistic job preview that you can put into, uh, to varying degrees. So what that means is exactly what it sounds like, which is at least a portion of your, your interview process is you engage in the skills that you'll be doing.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:33:47):

Uh, the idea here in the literature. And again, it's outside behavior analysis, but other fields have found that, you know, you basically, if you do the job for a little bit and then use, you can self select out, you think, boy, I don't like doing that. It turns out, so I'm going to leave. Uh, unfortunately this was much easier and like a bank than it is with kids with autism, right? Because the first thing you do is train somebody for two or three or four weeks or more before you turn them loose with a kid on their own. So it's a little tough to do a purely realistic job preview, but we're kind of messing around. I think I'll do a study on this at some point, uh, Ellie Kazemi is doing some work in this area as well. Um, you could at least have them watch.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:34:32):

I mean, if nothing else, they sign a waiver and they go in and they watch and that's for an hour, right? Because it's not, it's not hard to just sit in a corner and watch other people watch all the techs are scurrying from place to place and how fast they're working. And hopefully that they're getting lots of feedback and maybe they're dealing with problem behavior. They, somebody got bit while they're, while they're there. I mean, you know, whatever, that's better than just talking to them. But I think there's a level above that, which is they can actually do some work with somebody. And I'm messing around with the idea of some, either somebody novel or I asked the person doing the interview is the client, right? So they engage in the PR. They say, I want you to do this. And they train them how to do man training really quick, right.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:35:19):

15 minutes or so. And I say, okay, now you're going to run this program with me. And I am going to be the client. And, and I give them a little bit of trouble, but not, not much. Um, I try knock this stuff out of their hands and I don't attend to them and I have to prompt and that kind of stuff. Um, and it, that, I don't know, I don't know if that's better than, than just watching. I suspect it is. Right. And because then when you're done, you can have a conversation with them and you can tell them more, more things. And this is an attempt to get them again, to self select out. I think of saying, I do not, I do not want to do this. Ellie is using like little, uh, I think machines like little, like little people. And they like mock being like a client and they, they are programmed to do specific things.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:36:08):

And so I haven't seen it. I'm really interested though. I think she's working with NASA now on something else, but I, uh, that is maybe another route that's probably a bit more expensive to do, but, um, but you know, it could also be, if you have some typically developing peers around, I don't know that I would turn them loose on somebody with autism right from the beginning. I think that's a bit rough, but you know, you have some, you have a typically developing daycare. Maybe I just want to see you go interact with some kids. Maybe you just go in there and I say, Hey, go play with that kid over there for awhile. And I can just see how you interact. I mean, we know there's some soft things. Some people are just, they, they come in with a better behavior repertoire for doing this. So if I'm trying to make a decision between, uh, Shauna and Shana, right. I can some other sh staff member, I can, uh, I could watch them both and I can see, Oh, Shauna seems to really have an easy time connecting with these, with these kids. And they like her. She's got them laughing. I'll give it, I'll give the position to her. Um, I have thoughts about behavior analysts as well. I don't know if that, if that maps onto what you were thinking though, when you ran your center.

Shauna Costello (00:37:17):

I honestly, I ran most of them pretty much the same. Um, the behavior analyst went a little bit more in depth, of course then, you know, the tech positions, but, um, my interview process was pretty relaxed and because, um, we had a very, I don't know, I ended up with a very good set of staff, very good set of staff. And I got very, very lucky and, but I kind of, in my interviews, they were very relaxed. It's like, I want to get to know you as a person to see if you're going to actually fit in, not just not be good at your job, but also fit in with the staff and everybody else. And like you said, I'm really, I'm kind of glad you brought that up. Um, with every interview we brought them. So we had a, like an admin side of our building that was separate from the clinic side of our building.

Shauna Costello (00:38:15):

And so for every interview, we would, like you said, go head on over into the clinic. Let's go see. And, um, you know, it wasn't always lengthy, but they got to see like the chaos that it might be at that time. Um, and you know, watching a couple sessions, um, just for a few minutes and seen what's going on and maybe interacting if they were in the playroom interacting with some of the other staff and the other staff were always really good about asking some questions as well while they were in there. So yeah, it was, it was more so getting to know them as a person rather than being like, okay, are you going to be, cause I'm like, I'm a, I can teach you how to be good at this. I'm like, yeah, I can teach you how to be good at this. If you have, you know, this basic level of skill. So yeah, that's what we did. It was pretty laid back. And if they jived with the staff and with the supervisors, then yeah, that's usually how it worked out. And I know that now that I left about a year and a half ago, now my staff are still from that clinic are still best friends. Right. That makes me feel good.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:39:31):

Yeah. That's great. Behavior analysts are tricky. I think that's, that's a bit harder. I have, I have an opinion on behavior analysts, uh, and hiring them from the outside, which is I don't a lot. I don't hire every once in a while. So I just did a count and I, uh, there are, uh, about 30 or so BCBAs running around here and almost all of them are home grown BCBAs. So they were, they came in with bachelor's degrees usually, and they were very high level T uh, they're called teaching assistants, you know, for the most part, but they're high level techs. And we, we saw that. And while anybody can take advantage of our tuition reimbursement policy, we have our, we have a pretty generous policy. You specifically find the ones who are really good and really interested in really, uh, into it. And you say, Hey, you should go to school and let me help you.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:40:35):

Let me help you. Let me tell you about what it looks like and let me help shape you. And I also had a faculty appointment back then, so I could be their advisor as well. Um, so we would, we would shepherd them through the two, two and a half year process of getting your master's degree and then, and then sitting help them study for the BCBA exam. I mean, do all of the things we provided all their supervision. Uh, and then the, you know, we put them into BCBA roles when, when they were finished and people that we do that for don't believe really, uh, they, they been with us, you know, for years and years, um, that none of my students that here at Faison, that I've tried, I'm trying to make sure this is an accurate statement. None of my students have ever have left.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:41:20):

They're all still here. Uh, and our BCBA turnover rate is very, very low. Um, I think we lose, we lost one this year. Um, and that was the first one we lost in several years. Right? So, and even the people, occasionally when we hire from outside, they were people who used to work for Faison and then came back, you know, we, I hired one staff member, a new behavior analyst for our consultation service. And he used to work here. So I will say I have we in the past, I have hired outside BCBAs. And, uh, it just doesn't work out as well. Uh, you know, cause every, I think this was kind of what you were getting at too. Every place has got a culture and it's got a feel and it's how the staff interact. And I hold people to a very, very high level of, uh, of clinical competency around here.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:42:13):

And if you come and you grow up in that and you're used to the staff and you're used to the way we do things and you are, you're used to, uh, somebody saying, Hey, you need to do another functional analysis. I expect to see it. And in two days we'll come back and review it. That's intense for a lot of people. Um, but here, you know, it's kind of in the ordinary, that's, that's a typical thing to do. So I think that that is my answer for you want to keep behavior analysts create your own really good behavior analysts.

Shauna Costello (00:42:44):

Well, and that actually got me thinking I had only had one outside, outside hire in our BCBA level. Everybody else had moved up from, they started as an RBT and maybe then they might've become a BCABA maybe. Um, and then they became a BCBA. So thinking about it that, yeah, I did the exact same thing. So

Dr. Byron Wine (00:43:08):

If you, I mean, there's no substitute for knowing somebody for years. Right, right. I mean, it's the best interview in the world is still a day or two at the most. Like when they hire new faculty members at university, you get a day or two full days. And that feels like a lot. Yeah. But you can't substitute, I've known Kate for the past four years. Right. And I know she'll be good. Um, because I trained her and I know what she can do. I know exactly. I know what her limitations are. I know where she still needs to grow and I know what she can do. So we'll, we'll be able to move around to that spot. And I know what I've got and she's not put in a place where she's over her head either because I know her really well and I know what support she still needs and I can program for that. And I'm happy, you know, I'm happy to do that. Um, yeah.

Shauna Costello (00:43:52):

Oh no, you're good. And I know we're talking about a lot of good stuff right now and how building these good ones, but there, the next question talks about identifying staff who are struggling and how to support them before they give their notice. Um, because you know, not every clinic is going to be as yeah. Like they're working towards these goals, but they're not quite there yet, but how can they identify these staff?

Dr. Byron Wine (00:44:21):

Right. And I think, guess again, we've been saying it all along too, but there are different levels, right? So there's teaching assistant and behavior analyst. I think that there are two different procedures. Uh, so I think at the teaching assistant level or the tech level, um, there is, uh, there's pretty good data from other specifically nursing and other fields. And perhaps it goes through behavior analysis as well. Now that I'm talking through it, but where they mentor people. So, uh, a lot of hospitals have programs now for nurses specifically, uh, because you know, when you want to become a nurse there's nursing school and then you get out of school and you become a nurse, but that's a different, it's not always what you thought it was going to be. Right. And it's very being a nurse kind of like being a teaching assistant or attack or a behavior analyst is very high stress, right.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:45:11):

Often, you know, you have, I mean, they literally have lives in their hands, right? So, uh, there's a lot of work and a lot of stress and long hours. So what they tend to do is a mentoring program where you are, you are teamed up with a veteran nurse based on some criteria, but he or she then meets with you regularly. Um, and it's less, this piece is less about skill development and more about like, and it could be field development, I suppose, but it's more about like, tell me how it's going. How are you interacting? Are you having trouble with this doctor or this, this thing, or you, Oh, you can't figure, Oh, you can't figure out this thing. I'll show you a work around that I have for it. You know? And it's more like you, you vent to me for lack of a better term and I will kind of like help you.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:45:59):

Cause I've been there. I've been at the hospital for a number of years. And let me show you what it's like. I think there's no data in behavior analysis yet on whether or not that would work. I'm actually running a pilot program right now with mentors. So I paired up new teaching assistants here in the school with teaching assistants. Who've been here for a number of years. Uh, so they were, they've been here for a couple of years. They get consistently high integrity score ratings. We'll meet when we do the things they, uh, they're recommended by their teachers. So they have a couple of different, they have some of those badges I was talking about already. Um, and then I said, here's some money if you want to. Cause you have to incentivize, all right, this is more work. So, uh, here, if you want to, here's the, here's the amount of money it's not very large, but um, you're going to meet with this person and if they make it, if they're still here in 12 months, I'll pay you another, another, a small stipend of money as well. So the, the mentors are incentivized one. I picked people who like social interaction, right. Don't pick, don't pick people like me, that doesn't work. Right.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:47:12):

Yeah, no, you know, you, you do that. So they get cool social interaction and then they also, they're financially incentivized as well. And I am going to buy him lunch here a little bit, probably another couple of weeks just to see how it's going. And so they get some attention from senior leadership and stuff like that. I think it will help, but I don't know yet. And I don't, you know, I had thought about this in terms of, you know, the tech level, but I don't know necessarily that it, it wouldn't work at the behavior analyst level either. Right. Um, new behavior analysts are, are exactly that they're new and they need to, they need to be guided and they need help. And oftentimes I think at a small company, that is, that is the, the boss, right. The clinical director. But, uh, I, uh, I don't mentor any behavior analyst directly cause there's too many of them right now. So I have other people, I have layers that I built in so that other people who've been doing this for 10 years or so can, can spend a lot of time with, uh, with the behavior analysts as well. So we sort of, kind of defacto do that too.

Shauna Costello (00:48:18):

Yup. And yeah, I was at a small company, so it was easy for me to continuously meet or be available for the new, for the new ones. And often if it wasn't me with the, with the behavior, with the BCBAs or the BCABAs, um, that wasn't me, it would be another or more senior behavior analyst going with them to their, to their first sessions and their first clients to make sure that everything is going okay. And they're, yeah.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:48:54):

You know, I think this is as I, as I kind of think about it and I've heard a lot of, you know, there's such a thing as growing pains, right. As you grow. And I think one of the things that people specifically key in on is, um, Shauna used to give me a lot of attention, but now she doesn't anymore because she's fighting with insurance companies or she's doing whatever else she's doing. You know, when she's in her office with the door is closed. Right. So, and I, but people aren't very good, I think at tacting, uh, those specific things that they want. And I think they don't even always realize what it is that's problematic. In fact, I've heard a lot of staff, you know, if you ask them a lot, what they would like and what they would like improve, they typically say like, I want more communication. And you say, well, what exactly does that mean? You want to know more about what we're thinking? I think what they really mean is I want people to attend to me more. Uh, but they, they don't, they, I dunno, they just don't have a way to ask for it, you know? Um, so, and I think, you know, as you grow building in either the time for them or building in other people, like you were kind of describing to specifically attend to people helps quite a bit.

Shauna Costello (00:50:02):

Yeah. And I tried to keep like, as open communication as possible with all of my staff, but, you know, being the clinical director was really hard and all of them would come and tell me, like, after, you know, we had this talk and you know, I had gotten some feedback, individual feedback from them, you know, I sat down with them and we talked to everybody and they go, Oh yeah, we've learned that. Um, if Shauna's not talking to us. We're doing great. And I'm like, no that's horrible.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:50:34):

Yeah.

Shauna Costello (00:50:34):

I was like, no. So I tried really hard to change that, but you know what I mean, though? It's that same thing that people weren't there was growing pains for me. Cause we did grow exponentially. We opened up a second location. Um, so I was split between locations, making sure everything was going okay. And so, but you know what I mean? It's that same thing as like, no, I need to hear this too guys, like, please tell me these things because it's not always me giving you guys feedback. I need feedback just as much. So I was actually happy to hear that because then I could do something about it. Right. But yeah. It's that saying that actually putting a name to what you want. So yeah. I had the same thing. Um, all right. And then this is the last question, unless I randomly think of another one, um, that we got was how can we combat turnover, fever? And so I had to look that up. Yes. I didn't realize it had a name.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:51:39):

As near as I can tell turnover. Fevers seems to if, if the search engine is correct, it's seems to refer to a phenomenon where everybody, they leave, one person leaves and then more people just start leaving. Right. Like as a, as if the flu were spreading amongst the population. Okay. So my first question is, does this actually exist? Um, I, you know, when I think of people, you know, when I look at turnover patterns, you just think sometimes it looks like a lot of people are leaving and they might be, but it could just be a random, it just could be a random thing. Right. I mean, so I worry about false positives here, but let's, let's say it's a real thing. Okay. We'll we'll just go ahead and assume that it is, one thing I think of is there are cyclical patterns.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:52:31):

There are things that happen that are sometimes out of your control that can cause us a quote fever, right? So if the, if a new autism clinic opens up across town, you were the only one and another one opens up across town and they're paying a nickel more an hour. You might get a case of the fever breakout in your, in your place. And some, and a group of people leave. Right? Uh, here we, we get, according to this definition, we get a fever every may and every August or so as people graduate from school or as when they start school, right? Because in either case, they often, they often leave. So they finished I'm at a big university town. Richmond is a VCU is a very large university and there's several others in town. And a lot of students work here, then take classes full time or part time.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:53:22):

In one of those big university systems and they get their degrees and they leave sometimes, which that, by the way, that's good. I want the very, I'm happy for them. If you, if you finish your degree in museum science and, uh, the Richmond museum offers you a job, you should go take that job because that is what you wanted to do. And I I'll see you in the next art galla. Right. Um, but you know, or people like to get into grad school and they're moving to California because they cause they're going to go work with somebody out there. So all that's good. So I, I, first thing I'd say about fever is, uh, see if there's some outside forces that are, because I can't do anything about any of those. Right. So, but now let's assume that's not the case either that literally this phenomenon exists.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:54:11):

And it, the reason why it would exist that I could think about is something we were talking about earlier, which is one person leaves. It just got a little harder right now. All of us now another person leaves now, it just got harder. And now I have to pick up the slack for two people. And then I think I, you know what I'm done and I leave too. I can see that. I suppose I could see it spinning like that. And you know, you're, you're trying to get people in the door as fast as you can too, as a director. Yep. Come on in which goes back earlier to selecting employees, because sometimes you just don't have the luxury of a, I just bled five staff members and you look, okay, so you are coming in. Um, so there is, you know, I've talked to Aubrey Daniels once and

Dr. Byron Wine (00:54:59):

Uh, he was describing when he liked to use tangible or monetary reinforcers. And he said they should be reserved for periods where, uh, life is really difficult. Right. So, you know, that's something you could think about, which is, uh, I don't use a lot of tangibles or monetary stuff myself, either here, but I could see a scenario where all of a sudden three people quit in a small group maybe. And so I need to say, I can sit that group down and I say, okay, here's, what's going on. We are, we're, we're several staff members down. I'm doing everything I can to get more staff members in here. I got an interview next week. I promise I'll help, for this time period, until I get another fully trained staff, there is X reward on the table for you guys, right? So essentially what you're doing is comp, you're, you're requiring extra effort and, and tolerating extra stress for a short period of time.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:55:56):

So I'm going to give you something some extra tangible for that. But I think the important thing is, you know, that there's a start and a stop and the start is now the stop is when two more staff are fully trained and we get up to this number so that you don't, I don't, what you don't want to do is just stop cold Turkey on them without telling them, because I think what that does is creates a contrast effect and they don't like that. Right. When things are just suddenly something really good. And now all of a sudden it's, it's not so good anymore and it's worse than it was in the beginning almost. Right. Um, but I think if you have that short period of time where some, something money usually or something else valuable is available, uh, to kind of ease them through, that would be my, that would be my general suggestion probably to everybody turnover at the lower level is to be expected turnover at the higher level is to be avoided at all costs.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:56:53):

Right? So, um, I have a handful of directors and they've been here for years and years and years. And if one of them wanted to leave, that would be bad. So I don't, you know, no company should live or die by any one employee. That's I mean, that's, that's also devastating for an organization, but the people that you really need, you must treat really well. Um, because it would be a real, it would be devastating for me if one or more of my directors left because they are highly experienced people. And I think to your point, I suspect people would leave with them. If they went to another place, I suspect a fair number of people they've supervised over the years. And that like them would carry over if they, you know, if they were offered positions over there. So, yeah, I agree.

Shauna Costello (00:57:44):

Yeah. And I mean, I always had very open communication policy, so they always knew like, all my staff knew that they could contact me whenever they needed something. You know, if they were in session or cause I mean, our sessions ran until 7:30 at night. So, so they always knew that. But I mean, still to this day I get texts from them and like, like warms in my heart. I just got one like a few weeks ago for one of my newly certified. She just got certified like got her Master's and got certified. So she started supervising and apparently one of the parent, one of her parents was really like, she wasn't at the end of the previous supervisor. And so when she went out there, um, the parent was like, whoever trains you knew what the F they were doing. And I was like, awesome. I've gotten texts from so many people. I just got a text this week about, from one of my, from one of my old staff asking if I had access to a certain assessment, 'cause they needed help. Like, I know I love that they, that they know that they can still reach out to me and ask questions or do this, or do that. And yeah, it's cool.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:58:52):

Well, I was going to say one thing, I didn't, I didn't know if we wanted to get into it, um, interview, so maybe you can cut this if you, if you feel like you, you want to. But, uh, one of the things that I noticed, a lot of organizations just, they want, uh, to use a cliche, they want their cake and then they want to eat it too. Right. They want to be big and make a lot of money and serve a lot of clients. And that's great, but they don't. But then they also want high quality staff members who don't leave very often and who are really skilled. They don't want to, they want both of those things and you can't really do both or you can, but you have everything that I've described here all has a cost. Exactly. Childcare has a cost.

Dr. Byron Wine (00:59:38):

Mentorship time has a cost paying for somebody's school, certainly has a cost, making somebody a part owner, even if it's just 2% or something has a cost, this all costs. And so my, my, my more glib recommendation is if you wanna really do this, right, you are not going to be super rich. And look, you could own a company and you can grow it and you can have a nice living and you could, you could do really well. This is we're in the business of helping people. And if you, and that extends to our employees, if you want good employees, you've got to help them too. And you've got to give them something to believe in and something to follow as well, and then they can become your leaders. And then I don't see any reason why I should make $600,000 more than a behavior analyst that I, that I need air quotes.

Dr. Byron Wine (01:00:38):

It doesn't appear like you need them very much to me actually. Um, you know, so I, I have no profit problem with for-profit models or not. You know, I'm a not-for-profit, but I don't hope for profit against you because I think you can do it in a responsible way, um, where, you know, you can make a good salary, but so can your behavior analysts and they can grow into positions and they can grow in responsibility and they can take part ownership and then they they'll grow another thing right under you, you know, it's, I feel a lot of people sacrificing long term prosperity. It's delayed discounting, I think is actually what it is. They are, there's this longterm thing where you could help a lot of people and a lot of employees and a lot of kids for, but you have to give up some of your short term profit and that's that there is no other way, unless you just happen to be independently wealthy, then you can, you can do whatever you want, but there really just is no other way around it.

Shauna Costello (01:01:34):

Yeah. And I mean, that was the same thing for, you know, the company that I used to work for. Um, and I think that that's one reason why we got such high quality staff in was because when they came in and if they wanted to grow, they knew that their supervision was included. Like your supervision is included. If you work here, it's just like, no questions asked sure. Your supervision is included. So that just gave them even more motivation to come work for us because, you know, we're providing the super supervision, like for free, it's just included in your services and yeah. It's but you know what I mean? But then, like, I think, like I mentioned before, those are the people that then became BCABAs that then became BCBAs. And they stayed with the company for years because, and then when we opened up our second location, then we had the a couple of the BCBAs that were at the first location, moved to the second location. And they were then in charge of the second location.

Dr. Byron Wine (01:02:34):

Right. I think it's the same. Yeah. You could hurry and open a second location now, or in two years you could open a second location and have it be really, really good, you know, and it's, but you you're right. You're not going to make as much money now as you will then, but by slowly pacing it out, you're going to have the best services in your area, you know, and I, I, I worry a little bit about the field, you know, kind of like this seems to, whenever there's a lot of growth and an unmet demand, then you have the potential for quick profits, quick turnarounds, that kind of stuff, which, again, I don't care about people making money. You make the money, but, um, but just know that if you focus so much on one turnover, low unsatisfied staff members, mediocre services, which by the way, I will admit are better than none.

Dr. Byron Wine (01:03:24):

So, you know, um, all those things you're not going to be able to, you're just not gonna able to do anything about them and that's just going to be terrain for you. And if that's how you want to live, and you can live like that, it's too stressful for me. I can't even, I can't do it, you know, to your point. I, I had to be told by human resources when I got here, I just always gave supervision for, I same thing. I was like, yeah, that's just, that's just what I do. If you want supervision, you can come here. But then I started to realize people were coming from the outside just for it, and then trying to leave. So I was like, well, no, that's not okay. I won't do that. But, uh, yeah, I just always assumed, yeah, if you want, if you work for me and you want to become a behavior analyst and I'll do everything in my power to make that happen for you, you do the other piece, you do the studying and hard work and I'll do my piece because it's just, it's better for everybody, better for the world to have a well-trained behavior analyst.

Shauna Costello (01:04:16):

Yup. And I, yeah, I see the same thing. So yeah, I think it's really, like you said, it is delayed discounting and I, I mean, I've been talking to a few people, um, I mean, Jose, Tom Freeman, Henry Roane, like a lot of them are even worried about where the field is going and I think it has a lot to do with what we're talking about. But yeah. So I, yeah, I don't know. Do you have anything else that you want to mention about turnover? I mean, I don't want to give too much away because I know yes. So

Dr. Byron Wine (01:04:54):

I feel like a lot of the material that we've covered, you know, it just in this, in this talk here is in there and in much more detail. So I invite everybody to go and watch that. Um, I'm a you can stare at me for awhile while I talk and Shauna will be, she's also in the CE, she's just not quite in the camera shot, so she's just right off camera. So if you want to hear more of what we're saying here, go and do that. Um, And, uh, I think that's about, that's about all I had to say quickly. This is also based on a paper on behavior analysis and practice, you know, sort of coming out this whole, this whole area. I got tired of people asking me about turnover. So I decided I would just do a lit review and I would, I would put, start getting into it. And the joke is after 10 minutes of a lit review, I realized we were sort of in trouble because of the behavior analysis literature review. Right. That's kind of why I kind of rededicated myself to this area now. And as more data become available, we'll try to update stuff and keep it fresh as well.

Shauna Costello (01:05:53):

Yes, and we need, I mean, this is just, and I think that you and I talked about this in person when you were visiting, but this is even just showing that, you know, behavior and behavior analysis, isn't just, you know, kids with autism, it's, there's so many other fields and applications of it. And this is growing into the HR field. I mean, I guess technically, so this is bridging a gap that we need and that so many people who like we've talked about today, you know, are they want to go out and start their own companies. This is something that they're going to need to know, but they can still use their behavior analytics skills to do that. And yeah, and we've talked about turnover rate and this and that, and it's really hard to really grasp, grasp that over a podcast and just listening to it. So, like Byron said, um, I will include a link to his CE for decreasing turnover in human services, in the description of the, in the description of this podcast. Um, but he also goes much more into depth or in depth about turnover rate and examples of it and how to do it.

Shauna Costello (01:07:00):

And in anything that we've talked about today, he goes so much more in depth about what to do and what, what the research is and where to find the research. Um, so definitely go and watch the CE because I've watched it a few times now, uh, through the creation and review process. And it is a very, very good way to learn about a new skill that you're going to need. If you're getting into a supervisory role that you might not know that you needed. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. Um, yes, I'm learning a lot about turnover.

Shauna Costello (01:07:38):

Thank you for listening to this episode of operant innovations and our Q & A session with Dr. Byron Wine. And again, if you're interested in taking a continuing education course to further your knowledge about turnover, go to the info section of this podcast and take the CE from Byron. And as always, if you have feedback, suggestions, or comments, please feel free to reach out to us at operantinnovations@ABAtechnologies.com